Westminster West, Beware


The Cresecent Moon is looming over your waters. Well, at least according to one of our favorite raving theonomists in his riveting rip-off, er third-rate cover of “The Screwtape Letters.”  I can’t wait to see how the jihadists sneak money into the coffers of a Protestant seminary. Oh! the five-and-dime intrigue of it all.

This entry was posted in Bret McAtee, Humor, Theonomic rantings. Bookmark the permalink.

53 Responses to Westminster West, Beware

  1. Anglicanitalian says:

    And maybe, there will be another tornado that shows how God cannot support Two Kingdoms theology… then we will know theonomy is right (or John Piper)

  2. Zrim says:

    I think Orlando is still waiting for the terrorist attacks for allowing Gay Pride parades in 1998, per Pat Robertson–or was it Jerry Falwell? Call me a bigot, but I can’t tell any of them apart.

  3. Bruce S. says:

    Anyone who believes that the 2K position held by a few here and there is the reason that there is no evidence of transformation to be found even at ground zero has a screw loose somewhere.

    Clever rant though.

  4. Anglicanitalian says:

    All of them (theonomists and muslims, or Patty and Jerry) start to sound the same when they take up holy war and speak ex cathedra about Providence.

  5. Todd says:

    Okay, raving theonomists, let’s look up the following words in the dictionary and then determine their relevance to our relationship to the world in this age:


  6. Anglicanitalian says:

    But mommy, I don’t want to give up my quest for world domination!

  7. sean says:

    I wonder what kinda nightmare it must be for a culture warrior to wake up and realize it’s God Himself upon whom he’s declared war.

    I gotta new bumper sticker for those in the “know”;

    “No premature eclipsing of this age”

  8. John Yeazel says:

    Premillenialists and those who consciously or unconsciously hold to a dispensational theological and revivalistic viewpoints are going to have huge problems with us amillenialists and we who are looking more at reforming the church than changing the political landscape. We are viewed by the dispensationalists as the “devils workers” simpy because we interpret the scriptures differently than they do. Luther was always fighting battles with those within the church. That is the best way to learn theology, he frequently said that. So, do not be dismayed when you are being called all sorts of names and are completely misunderstood and misinterpreted. That is how spiritual warfare is played out. It also shows that you are fighting the battles that really matter and not being sidetracked by politics which is really a lesser concern.

  9. John Yeazel says:

    I failed to mention theonomists and those who hold to a postmillenial point of view also. Two-Kingdom theology and amillenialism go hand in hand; just like premillenialism and dispensationalism and postmillenianism and theonomy (or Kuyperianian culture transforming Calvinism)- I am stating the obvious but we often forget that when we argue with others. In order for someone to change their political views they will have to change their eschatological views also if they are going to be consistent. And that often is asking too much for those who disagree with our viewpoint. It is ultimately a theological and eschatological battle

  10. John Yeazel says:

    I have also found that we tend to argue on a moral basis rather than a theological basis. With any kind of Arminianism and revivalism in people’s thinking (or something we can take credit for because we are more “moral” than the other guy) they are going to drift towards a premillenial or postmillenial eschatology. We still like taking credit for our “success” in our walk with God. That is why I am an advocate for Rosenbladt’s “Weak on Sanctification” T-shirts. We are always in need of sanctification and should always keep that in the forefront of our still unsanctified minds.

  11. John Yeazel says:

    This Muslim issue gets a bit dicey though. A lot of the paranoia borders on xenophobia and can be cured as we begin to understand the religion more. There are a lot of different groups within the religion. Just like the media covers religion as one group (right-wing conservative evangelicals) with no understanding of the various theological positions within the group. There are violent Muslims like their are violent Christians (those who advocate blowing up abortion clinics). However, inherent in the Muslim religion is the justification of violent acts against infidels. Christ never advocated violent acts against unbelievers- “My kindgom is not of this world.” He also miraculously repaired the ear of the roman soldier that Peter so triumphalistically took off with the sword.

    Luther wrote a scathing paper against the “Turk” religion yet said he would vote for a Turk who understood justice. This is the paradox of two-kingdom theology.

  12. John Yeazel says:

    I am speaking such things which all in the outhouse are cognizant of. My too many obvious remarks are revealing my taking myself too seriously. You need to kick those in the outhouse out of the househouse when they start spouting off like that. Some sort of warning or BS detector needs to be put in place.

  13. Todd says:


    Five posts in a row. That’s more than a kill pot in poker.

  14. John Yeazel says:

    Hey, I thought Calvinists didn’t play cards- especially poker. Do you smoke cigars and take in second hand smoke too? I am not being defensive just making fun of some of the eccentricities of Calvinists. You guys like to promote yourselves as high-church and high-brow culturalists too. No wonder you are in the outhouse.

  15. John Yeazel says:

    I am not sure what a househouse is- where did that come from? I have not been taking in any Dewer’s and sodas either. I tend to type too fast and then not doublecheck my posts.

    I also post too early and then think of other things I should have said in the post. When I get off subject I try to pull it back.

  16. John Yeazel says:

    You are not the same Todd whom I know that works at Vanderlaan Funeral Home in Hudsonville and was a chemistry major at Calvin College are you? Your wife is a relative of the Zondervans?

  17. dgh says:

    Zrim, the irony here is that Pastor Bret would actually be more comfortable in an Islamic Republic. Muslims are moral after all and are as opposed to the West’s moral decadence as the good CRC pastor. But if you wanted an alternative to Islamic soteriology, can you find a better witness than WSC?

  18. Zrim says:


    Yes, I can see that. At the same time, though, how at ease would a rabbi really be in an Islamic state?

  19. John Yeazel says:

    Warfield was always up to a good fight with unbelief- one could say he was a “pugilist specialist.” He even was clouded with some delusions of world domination. Another reason for weak on sanctification T-shirts. Even the best of us have area’s of thinking that need more sanctification.

  20. John Yeazel says:

    Did not quite follow that previous exchange between the heavyweights. What is WSC?- and I do not get the reference to Islamic soteriology. From what I understand there really is no Islamic soteriology- it is entirely at the whim of Allah; however he (Allah that is) is happening to feel on a particular day. Kind of like the Catholic soteriology- there never is really any assurance (I maybe getting myself in trouble here). Perhaps I am revealing my superficial understanding of the religion(s).

    And who is Pastor Bret? Did not see any reference to a particular person in the link at the original post.

  21. Todd says:


    No, not that Todd. And I play poker occasionally as a common grace activity, yet I must admit, my inner Bret does seek dominion over the other players.

  22. John Yeazel says:


    I appreciate your sense of humor- you outhouse regulars speak over my head though- “inner Bret?” You make me think too hard. This must be something the regulars get but I am out of the loop.

  23. Todd says:

    John – go to Zrim’s original post above and click on the link and you’ll get the reference.

  24. John Yeazel says:

    Todd- Yes I did check that but it really did not tell me much. I understood he was a raving theonomists but he must be someone all are aquinted with. Someone with the same mentality as a John Lofton I suppose.

    What is WSC?

  25. Todd says:

    Westminster Seminary California – or the “Lutheran” seminary as our critics call us.

  26. John Yeazel says:

    Ok, now I get it- I did not realize WSC was being called the “Lutheran” seminary. I like the exchange even more now.

  27. Paul says:

    Of course, these kinds of things are reversable.


    Intercepted Memo


    From: The Right Hand Of Allah
    To: Messengers Of Allah In North America
    Subject: The Islamification Of North America


    We greet you in the name of Mohammad (PBUH). Destroy the last memo. We found a more sure way to destroy infidel Christians. We are sending each our sleeper agents 50 million dollars from the oil fund account to use in opening strip clubs, producing movies with nudity and cussing in them, and contributing to Obama’s 2012 election campaign.

    This will ensure that almost all of the Kyperian and Theonomist churches, not to mention Liberty U &c., will spend all their time fighting for holiness in their nation and none of their time preaching their gospel of the prophet Jesus (PBUH). This is the true hope of Christians and the true enemy of Islam. We need to take their eyes off Jesus and place them on disgust of boobies. Therefore, upon this consideration, HQ has just authorized me to send each of you an extra 5 million dollars to fund Kyperian and Theonomist churches, not to mention Liberty U &c.

    Of course, some meager churches and seminaries, like Westminster West, will continue to preach the gospel and proclaim what he (supposedly) did for his people. We do not need to worry about them for they are few.

    Only one word of warning. If you mistakenly give any of this money we are sending you to Westminster West or churches started by their graduates you will be immediately recalled and reassigned to something you will find dreadful. Those versions of Christianity are anathema to our agenda in the West.

    In the name of Mohammad (PBUH),

    The Mullah’s of the Right Hand Of Allah


  28. sean says:

    “We need to take their eyes off Jesus and place them on disgust of boobies.”

    Yeah, never could figure this one out. Either too much promise keepers or too much lying and/or a deficient doctrine of creation. Some mix I’m sure.

    For my theonomist/crat buddies; that was humor.

  29. RubeRad says:

    Hey, I thought Calvinists didn’t play cards- especially poker. Do you smoke cigars and take in second hand smoke too?

    No way, man, we Calvinists are actually known for self-righteously blowing our cigar smoke into legalists’ faces. If you’re ever swinging through San Diego, hopefully you can join us at one of these, and you can see how us real Calvinists party!

  30. John Yeazel says:


    Now that is something that is appealing- there should be convenient and lively hogie and stogie get togethers in nearby locations. It is kind of like the confessional version of the small group bible studies. If done properly-with sufficient oversight from those who know what they are talking about- it probably would be much more beneficial then the superficial piety which results from the evangelical version.

    Great line- I was going to say Rube but I don’t know you well enough yet- the one about blowing smoke in legalists’ face. I will have to put that in my memory banks to use at appropriate moments. The other guy is always the Pharisee or Hitler (unfortunately I have used that tactic myself in the past). We need to develope better debating skills and hogie and stogie get togethers would go a long way to curing that particular ill of Americans.

    Tell me how you got it started and I will try to start a Chicago chapter- I have a need for spirited and interesting theological and philosophical dialog which is not being met. It is much better live and in person than over the internet.

    If I am ever in San Diego again I will definitely look you up. A wonderful place to live and visit.

  31. RubeRad says:

    Great line- I was going to say Rube but I don’t know you well enough yet- the one about blowing smoke in legalists’ face.

    Rube is fine — you’re a regular by now! And I’m sure you realize that blowing smoke in legalists’ faces is not necessarily good; we realize that is our reputation, and we try to exercise Christian liberty all cue charity.

    Tell me how you got it started and I will try to start a Chicago chapter

    I actually didn’t start it. Another guy in my church started it by inviting about a dozen dudes to his house for an informal debate on tongues between himself and our pastor, and it grew from there. When he was ordained as an elder, he gave it over to me. Initially it was just dudes in our church doing the debating, but nowadays I try to use pastors all the time. If you want to get one started, I’d suggest giving the .mp3s a listen, and take it from there. I’d be glad to give you more tips if you have questions!

  32. John Yeazel says:

    I am amazed by the similarity of backround of those who frequent the outhouse- the tongues issue was one I weathered also. I spent many years in non-denominational church’s and it has warped my mind. Thank God for Horton’s Putting Amazing Back into Grace. It put sanity back in my life while I continue to fight the insanity of my evangelical years. Those thought patterns do not leave easily. My continued reading of the books Horton referred to in his extended bibliogrpahies (I always loved those and modern reformation magazine) led me down the path of the reformation and into a confessional Church of the Lutheran type; although I read as much from Calvinists and I do from Lutherans.

    Did I just get duded?- easy on the dudes dude. Reminds me of that movie with Jeff Bridges- The Great_________ I cannot remember the name of it. Don’t take that personally (I am sure you won’t). I got a kick out of it.

    I have always meant to ask you about RubeRad- is that short for something or are you just trying to cloak your indentity on the internet?

  33. John Yeazel says:

    The movie was the Big Lebowski- probably not a big hit with the Calvinists; although at times when I read Calvin and find out more about him I think he probably would have been a modern day equivalent to a punk rocker or a Goth if he did not get converted to Christianity. That may be my subjective mind telling me things that are not even remotely close to the truth. We see what we want to see and disregard the rest. I have had those thoughts running through my head when looking at pictures of Calvin and reading some of his works and remarks.

  34. Zrim says:

    The movie was the Big Lebowski- probably not a big hit with the Calvinists…

    Not as I understand it. As I understand it, one professor Hart held a Lebowski bowling tournament for his WSCAL students, with a souped-up coffee can as the trophy. And since every Coen film is a hit with this Calvinist, El Duderino is no exception.

  35. RubeRad says:

    The movie was the Big Lebowski- probably not a big hit with the Calvinists

    Wrong again, dude! I know for a fact that Rick and Z and I all think Lebowski is fantastic (it really tied the room together!) If you say anything bad about that masterpiece, you’re entering a WORLD OF PAIN. You’re probably right, though, that strict Calvinists don’t roll on shabbas.

    I have always meant to ask you about RubeRad- is that short for something or are you just trying to cloak your indentity on the internet?


  36. John Yeazel says:

    I can open up my life on myspace and facebook and as long as I am honest about my theological and philosophical beliefs no one seems to care anyways. The more clear you become the more indifference seems to increase. That may be a cloak for my stupidity of revealing too much of myself. I always admired those who could keep themselves anonymous- a much wiser course of action.

  37. John Yeazel says:

    Now how can you not like a guy who holds Lebowski bowling tournaments. I don’t care how controversial and provocative his writing might be. I thought the interview he did with Mark Dever was one of the more engaging sessions I have heard in a long time. His interviews on Mars Hill audio’s are also worthwhile listening to.

  38. RubeRad says:

    Speaking of MHA, Ken Myers also likes Big Lebowski! When we came to our church to do a conference last year, my pastor got to spend a lot of time with him. Apparently Myers’ prehistory is in film, and the discussion turned to Big Lebowski, which Myers does like. My pastor asked him, “So, what is The Big Lebowski about?” Myers came right back, “Oh, it’s about two hours”

  39. Anglicanitalian says:

    John, you said “Warfield was always up to a good fight with unbelief- one could say he was a ‘pugilist specialist.’ He even was clouded with some delusions of world domination.”

    No wonder he was post-millennial!

    In all seriousness I think you are right. I wonder how much of divergent theology is due to our antipathy to be under the Cross and a Cruciform ministry of Word and Sacrament, slowly becoming irrelevant to a secular/pagan culture. It gets depressing, I’m sure. We are weak on Sanctification, indeed! The more we come into that type of resolution as that which constitutes the Christian, the more time we will have to thank God for Holy Absolution and the Eucharist!

  40. John Yeazel says:


    There is no need for Church if you don’t believe you really need Holy Absolution and the Eucharist each week. Church just becomes a revival and motivational camp meeting. R.C. Sproul used to say the R.C. stood for radically corrupt. That bit of wisdom made me realize that I needed to get out of my evangelical mentality and church and find one of the confessional type. In all honesty I had to admit I was not quite as holy as I was deluding myself to believe. I began to look at and read Romans 7 in a different light.

    The flip side is that you can become so overwhelmed with your corruption that you have a hard time with assurance. Again, it all leads back to the sacraments and trusting in them more than the reality of your vascillating spiritual experience.

  41. John Yeazel says:


    Great response by Myers- you cannot measure the utility of the Big Lebowski nor is its appeal easy to explain. You just sit back and enjoy it.

  42. John Yeazel says:


    I suppose I should say you trust the sacraments of the Church because Christ himself established and instituted them as a primary means of grace.

  43. RubeRad says:

    Hey Scott, is that what you were saying when that picture was taken?

  44. John Yeazel says:

    I am going to have to watch The Big Lebowski again this weekend- it has been awhile since I saw it last. I have been thinking about the movie all day while at work and trying to figure out why I actually want to watch it again. The bowling scenes are worth the price of admission. I forget all the names of the actors in the movie but they are all cut from the same mold as Christopher Walken. I just looked them up- John Goodman, Steve Buscemi, Philip Seymour Hoffman, John Torturra (does a great latin American delusional bowling disco king impression) and Julianna Moore to name a few. All great actors. I suppose the script just captures a lot of the absurdity of everyday life as we experience it from day to day. Kind of like Seinfield and Curb Your Enthusiasm.

  45. John Yeazel says:

    You need the right type of actors to pull that type of script off and they do pull it off in the Big Lebowski.

  46. RubeRad says:

    If you’ve never seen it, you should also check out Barton Fink, starring John Turturro and John Goodman (and also with a small part for Steve Buscemi). It’s a bit of a different animal from most Coen bros movies — a lot darker — but I’ve always liked it.

  47. John Y says:

    I have seen Barton Fink and thoroughly enjoyed it. Turturro plays a rather naive but engrossing and thoughtful character who gets jacked around by others- kind of like a lot of Christians do. That may be a warped interpretation but that is what I went away from it with. Whether he was aware of getting jacked around I am not sure- I think I will have to watch it again to determine that. I cannot remember how it ended either- I believe I was watching it on one of the movie channels and fell asleep near the end.

  48. John Y says:


    Have you checked out Zrim’s dialog with Walt on the Riddleblog? He gets called the L word quite frequently. He holds his composure well though. I hate to say I told you so but I knew this Muslim issue was going to get dicey- especially among aggressive conservative types. An underlying assumption of two-kingdom theology seems to be that the government will perform their functions without any bias or favor from and towards certain groups in society. There needs to be much more discussion and understanding of 2K- I think many people will react negatively towards it outside the confessional camp.

  49. Zrim says:


    Though it is certainly something in the backdrop, I am not sure the discussion like the one between Walt and me is necessarily a 2K one. It might just be an example of fellow 2Kers having different views with regard to something in the KoM. (I find the same thing happens when it comes to signature politics like abortion, or the even more sensitive politics of education.) 2K thinks that believers can be as at odds with fellow believers as they can be in agreement with unbelievers over civil matters.

    At the same time, though, surely the pilgrim ethic that informs 2K seems to be at loggerheads with a modern ethic of regime (i.e. where the telos is human power and dominion over nature). It seems to me that when the modern ethic trumps the pilgrim one is where we begin to see lots of oddities in the ranks, not least is the fear and loathing about the Mooselimbs coming to gobble up our first-borns. Check this out for kicks.

  50. John Yeazel says:

    I cannot say that I am very well read in American History or American political philosophy but it seems that the Federalists foresaw what has actually taken place. I take it the author of the article has not written the Anti-Federalists competing ideas yet. I am anxious to read what he has to say next. I am assuming he will take the position that you and Hart are convinced is the route our country should seek to go. Good luck trying to get your voice heard in the public square. It looks as though Hart is making a concerted effort to do so.

    Many of the major founders were obviously not very good theologians and were more concerned about impressing their peers with their vast philosophical and theoretical political ideas- in other words, they were men of there times with few ideas running around in their heads that could be said to transcend any time or place. They were concerned about “morals and virture” but did not really get that this was an outgrowth of good theology, polity and worship developed over many years. I have known some very smart people who get enamored with the here and now and have no concern for the not yet. They were very ambitious too- needless to say, we eventually came into severe conflict with each other. One in particular I happened to be in love with. I should not have continued the relationship for as long as I did but she was extremely interesting to talk with but always seemed to have a agenda that I kept her from. I never cooperated with her plans or her ideas. Needless to say, I learned a lot from her even though it ended up not being a very good experience. That is what I was thinking of when reading the Federalist agenda. We get influenced by these ideas because they are so common in the dialog we have with others. It is difficult to communicate transcendent ideas (which is basically what good theology is all about) in this type of environment.

    Thanks for the link- it is good to have a good mentor. You are very fortunate. At Calvin I did develope a relationship with one of my economic professors that I still draw from. I loved the classes I took from him and I used to spend hours after classes on friday and dialog with him. He taught me a lot about economic ideas and life among academics. The Calvin econ professors were ahead of their times back then and foresaw a lot of the problems that have developed in the economic realm. He sends me links to what is really happening economically that I can forward to you if you are interested. I will have to get him interested in some of Hart’s ideas and see what he has to say.

  51. John Yeazel says:


    Now you got me interested in the Front Porch Republic and the political ideas it is promoting. It sounds a bit like the Scotish Common Sense Realism that the Princeton theologians latched onto. I read some of the other related link posts- some interesting ideas that I will have to look more deeply into. How American political philosophy began and developed is certainly an interesting study and one which influences all of our thinking in ways which we are not really that aware of. Like the author of the article said we swim in it everyday but do not realize the alternatives or problems which may ensue from it. I think we are at a point in our history here where the problems are coming to a head. Big government is getting out of hand and the citizens who have the insight and wisdom to see the problems may be the only ones who can do something about it. Thanks again for the nudge to get me interested in this. I find it very fascinating and worth spending more time on.

  52. efwake says:

    Could it be that McAtee is really Gary Moody in disguise??

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