Compromising Positions

At Booksthe WHI taping I attended, the topic was “Selling Jesus: Consumerism and Market Values in the Church,” and OHS Clark jumped in early with a quote from Nathan Hatch’s The Democratization of American Christianity:

Amidst this population boom [1775-1845], American Christianity became a mass enterprise. The eighteen hundred Christian ministers serving in 1775 swelled to nearly forty thousand by 1845. The number of preachers per capita more than tripled; the colonial legacy of one minister per fifteen hundred inhabitants became one per five hundred. … Twice the number of denominations competed for adherents, and insurgent groups enjoyed the upper hand.

This was only a few days after Echo sent me a fascinating article about a trend towards political moderation in the Religious Right. Adam Smith, in Wealth of Nations, observed similar revivalism and denominational proliferation in the Britain of his day (1776):

Smith observed a relationship between these revivals and the process that we now call urbanization. Young people, arriving in cities in search of work, faced new opportunities and temptations without the structure that village life—with its communities of relatives and others that watched and guided young people—had provided. “A single week’s thoughtlessness and dissipation is often sufficient to undo a poor workman forever,” wrote Smith about life in London. But the city’s small sectarian religious congregations gave rural immigrants a social-support network and a moral code that could keep them on the straight and narrow as they built new lives. These movements were a response to the dislocations of modernity; there was no reason to expect them to fade away.

Yet in the teeming religious marketplace of Britain’s cities, Smith also saw pressures that would limit the political impact of religious beliefs and prevent theocracy. With so many competing denominations, he noted, religious leaders could acquire political influence only by finding allies outside their own version of the faith—and the process of forming those alliances would drive them toward agendas that could appeal to a wider, multi-faith audience. To be politically significant, he wrote, religious extremists had to move toward broader and necessarily more-moderate coalitions. Their entry into politics would, itself, moderate them.

Indeed, what is politics, but compromise? (That is a small question, in the middle of a long post, but really it is the core of the post, so stop a second and let it sink in) If the Church’s mission is to “engage the culture” (or even yuckier: “redeem the culture”!) via politics, then success requires compromise, and an uncompromising Church will necessarily be a failure. This is the mentality that got us to our current infatuation with “deeds, not creeds.”

So that was then (18th century Britain, post-revolution U.S.); and this is now. Plus ça change Yesterday, Clark posted on Heidelblog about the brouhaha currently raging at Westminster Philadelphia (WTSP). While am not intending to analyze WTSP’s situation in particular, this quote is applicable to the church as a whole:

The pressure is immense to conform to the theology, piety, and practice of the evangelicals. There is not a great “market” in North America for Reformed confessionalism. There are at least 60 million American evangelicals. There are probably no more than one half million confessional Reformed folk. Put another way, the evangelicals are at least 120 times larger than NAPARC. Implicitly it has been promised to confessional Reformed institutions that if they will only give a little on Reformed distinctives (e.g. the regulative principle, the sabbath, Word and sacrament) they will be allowed to retain what is “really important” (e.g. predestination) and we will be made “influential” and even wealthy with larger students bodies and more donations. Of course it’s a Faustian bargain. By making such a bargain Reformed folk have allowed others to define them.

I have some additional thoughts, but as this post is long and self-contained enough, I’ll stop here for now.

This entry was posted in Confessionalism, History, Reformed Confessionalism, Transformationism, under-confessionalism, W2K. Bookmark the permalink.

105 Responses to Compromising Positions

  1. Ron Smith says:

    If the Church’s mission is to “engage the culture” (or even yuckier: “redeem the culture”!) via politics

    Who says that?
    Culture wars should be fought culturally, not politically. Culture is defined as how a group of people live and Jesus tells all men everywhere how to live.

    Politics is about protecting the righteous from the wicked, not converting the wicked. That belongs to the office of the Church.

    This is the mentality that got us to our current infatuation with “deeds, not creeds.”

    Which is just as bad as “creeds, not deeds”. Jesus taught both. The Church has a Credenda and an Agenda. 🙂

    There is not a great “market” in North America for Reformed confessionalism.

    Well, not the sort that Dr. Clark prefers. But the CREC sort is growing in leaps and bounds.

  2. Ron,

    The CREC is growing by leaps and bounds, and that’s a good thing? Islam is also growing by leaps and bounds! So what?

  3. RubeRad says:

    RR: …”redeeming culture”…
    Ron: Who says that?

    Do you make a distinction between “redeeming culture” and the salvation of a culture?

  4. RubeRad says:

    [RR: my reaction here is based on misreading “protecting the righteous from the wicked…That belongs to the office of the Church”: what Ron actually said is…]

    Politics is about protecting the righteous from the wicked, not converting the wicked. That belongs to the office of the Church.

    No, justice is about protecting the wicked from each others’ wickedness, and that office belongs to the State. Politics is about the administration of the State.

    And Redemption is about protecting the wicked from the righteous (God). That office belongs to Christ, and is administrated by the Church.

  5. RubeRad says:

    the CREC sort is growing in leaps and bounds.

    If Mormonism has taught us anything, it is that a focus on family is more important than doctrinal correctness when it comes to growing in leaps and bounds.

  6. Pingback: Is the CREC analogous to Islam? « Sola Fidelity

  7. RubeRad says:

    Ron, back to the actual topic, if Jesus’ commands imply that the Church is to fight a cultural war, do you see any reason why a Church shouldn’t endorse a political candidate? Or churches/denominations form a political party to get “their own” issues into the public, and “their own” candidates into office?

  8. Ron Smith says:

    Reuben,
    I didn’t ask, “Who says, ‘redeeming the culture'”. I asked, “Who says, ‘The Church’s mission is to redeem the culture via politics.”?

    The comment of mine you linked demonstrates my view of the former, but not the latter.

  9. RubeRad says:

    Is politics then a cultural sphere that does not contain any square inches that need to be under Christ’s kingship? What’s a good Christendominion if it has no political wing?

  10. Ron Smith says:

    Is politics then a cultural sphere that does not contain any square inches that need to be under Christ’s kingship? What’s a good Christendominion if it has no political wing?

    Again, not what I said. I will try to type more slowly.

    Yes the political sphere should be under Christ’s headship and operate by God’s Law. But this is not redemptive. It is as I said, for the protection of the righteous from the wicked. The ministry of redemption belongs to the Church.

  11. kazooless says:

    Reading your post I had the same reaction to it that Ron wrote in comment #1, before I even saw his comment. No wonder you don’t like theonomy, at least partially. I don’t like a message that says the church must engage the culture via politics either! And, every theonomist I’ve ever read or listened to speaks of the importance of evangelizing and discipling. The so called “culture war” is to be grass roots. Theonomy answers the question “by what standard should we live?” when we start winning that “culture war.”

    Now, I know you don’t even like the idea that there is any type of “culture war” at all. So be it. Maybe it is that particular name that is revolting to you. Or maybe it is just that you don’t see the gospel converting very many individuals in history so there will never be enough converted individuals to influence culture. Whatever. But if God started to convert a vast number of the world’s population, I think we would see the culture changing as well. And then you really would need an answer to “what standard?”

    Also, is it of no significance to you that Jesus told his disciples that ALL authority has been given to Him ON EARTH and then applies that with a THEREFORE… MAKE DISCIPLES… OF THE NATIONS? It’s mind boggling to me how anyone can say that it only means a small measly representative group of each nation.

    Last remark: I am reading Ken Gentry’s The Greatness of the Great Commission and in it he makes a point that Christ came to save us from sin. He asserts that not only would that include the sinfulness of our own hearts, but the sin of others, too. Hence, God has ordained the civil magistrate to protect us from evil-doers, and thereby that is part of His saving the world from sin. I thought it to be an interesting point.

    kazoo

  12. RubeRad says:

    Again, not what I said. I will try to type more slowly.

    Sorry, I see now “…converting the wicked. That belongs to the office of the Church.” I’ll try to read more slowly.

  13. Ron Smith says:

    Sorry, I see now “…converting the wicked. That belongs to the office of the Church.” I’ll try to read more slowly.

    No problem. Maybe now you should go back and re-read everything you ever read that made you dislike theonomy. 🙂

  14. RubeRad says:

    Theonomy answers the question “by what standard should we live?” when we start winning that “culture war.”

    No, “by what standard should we live?” is already understood by all Reformed (and many non-Reformed) to be God’s full and unchanging moral law. Theonomy is about (or Theonomy departs from 2K in that it is about) “by what standard should the civil magistrate define and penalize crime?”

    And how can you add the qualifier “when we start winning that ‘culture war’”? By that logic, we’re not ready to impose God’s standard onto society when it comes to abortion, euthanasia, divorce, adultery, rape, witchcraft, incorrigible children, gay marriage, teaching evolution in schools, …

    But if God started to convert a vast number of the world’s population, I think we would see the culture changing as well. And then you really would need an answer to “what standard?”

    I also (unlike Zrim) think that we would see the culture changing. And therefore you would not really need an answer to “what standard”? The more Christian and sanctified the membership of a society is, the more the civil magistrate looks like a Maytag repairman!

    It’s mind boggling to me how anyone can say that it only means a small measly representative group of each nation.

    The health or measliness of the representative group of each nation is not under our control. We plant the seeds, but God makes them grow. Although it may be arguable whether the Bible indicates the number may be measly, certainly the Bible nowhere says “since the number is only going to be measly anyways, you don’t have to evangelize that much”

  15. RubeRad says:

    Maybe now you should go back and re-read everything you ever read that made you dislike theonomy.

    It’s always a good idea to re-read the Bible!

  16. Why must “the church” engage the culture?

    Why can’t Christians engage the culture? Nothing about two-kingdoms theology says that Christians can’t engage the culture. Why can’t the institutional church be left to its proper business: preaching Christ, administering the sacraments, and administering discipline. As far as I can see the visible, institutional church can hardly manage that let alone taking back whatever for Jesus.

    Yes, CHRISTIANS SHOULD ENGAGE THE CULTURE — pay attention! Yes, I’m shouting. Yes, there is a kulturkampf, but there probably has always been one of sorts. The question is not “whether” but rather the questions are by whom and how and to what end? Christians should engage the culture on the basis of natural REVELATION and they should preach the law to the culture which is what culture is about. Art, language, music, law, and whatever else composes a culture is about law. All these things must be done in obedience to certain laws. It is about understanding these laws.

    The gospel (which is the basis for any Christian notion of “transformation”) has been committed to the church and is found there, not in the culture. Transformation, properly defined, belongs to Christians and to the visible church in anticipation of the eschaton.

    The attempt to apply the category of “transformation” to the culture is the result of an over-realized eschatology and with goes hand-in-hand with the confusion of the church with the culture.

  17. Ron Smith says:

    It’s always a good idea to re-read the Bible!

    Espescially if you whiz past key points like you’ve exhibited today. Anyway, it doesn’t matter how much you read the Bible if you don’t believe what it says. 😆

  18. Ron Smith says:

    Christians should engage the culture on the basis of natural REVELATION …

    Why should they? What I mean is, what is the basis for the Christian’s engagement of the Culture? Why shouldn’t he just sit at home and pray or watch tv?

  19. Ron Smith says:

    No, “by what standard should we live?” is already understood by all Reformed (and many non-Reformed) to be God’s full and unchanging moral law. Theonomy is about (or Theonomy departs from 2K in that it is about) “by what standard should the civil magistrate define and penalize crime?”

    But Rube, how do you make a distinction between the standard we should live by and the standard the civil magistrate should live by? Isn’t it the same standard? If you agree that there is one standard by which men ought to govern their lives, and some of those men are civil magistrates, then you have to agree that civil magistrates must govern their lives by that same standard.

    But according to you, that standard is of no use to the civil magistrate when it comes to telling him how to handle a murderer. What standard does he use then? Whatever you say to that, if it is not “God’s Law”, then you will be refuting your original statement that “’… by what standard should we live?’ is already understood by all Reformed (and many non-Reformed) to be God’s full and unchanging moral law.”

  20. Echo_ohcE says:

    Dr. Clark brings up an important point. Engaging the culture is all about law. If you see the purpose of the church as being primarily to transform and engage the culture, then the church becomes all about law too, to the exclusion of the gospel.

    What a coincidence then that revivalism and it’s concomitant transformationalism became nothing but doctrinally vapid moralism.

    E

  21. Why should Christians engage the culture? Because it’s a creational law. We were commanded to name things. We are commanded to steward creation.

    This is why Theonomy is just like Barthianism. Neither one of you folks believe in nature. You’re both quasi-gnostic. It’s no surprise that both groups have trouble with the covenant of works and you end up confusing law and gospel. Barth did you. You guys do it regularly. You’re both making fundamental theological mistakes.

    The pattern for our life in this world is not Israel. They were the pattern for the CHURCH not for civil life. The USA isn’t Israel. No civil entity is Israel. That’s the point of WCF 19. That’s why we confess “general equity” and not “the abiding validity….etc”

    Creation/nature is enough reason.

    Where do we see Paul transforming the culture? Nowhere!

    Where do we see the Apostle Peter transforming the culture? Nowhere!

    What do they say? Rom 13 and 1 Pet 3-4: Live quiet, godly lives.

    Not a shred of cultural transformationalism there.

  22. RubeRad says:

    But Rube, how do you make a distinction between the standard we should live by and the standard the civil magistrate should live by? Isn’t it the same standard?

    No, the personal standard is much, much higher than the standard the civil magistrate should enforce.

    civil magistrates must govern their lives by that same standard. But according to you, that standard is of no use to the civil magistrate when it comes to telling him how to handle a murderer.

    You are equivocating with “govern”, switching between how the C.M. should govern his own life and how he should govern somebody else’s life. There’s a big difference. And that in turn is radically different than how a ruling elder should govern somebody else’s life.

  23. kazooless says:

    Dr. Clark said:

    The pattern for our life in this world is not Israel. They were the pattern for the CHURCH not for civil life. The USA isn’t Israel. No civil entity is Israel. That’s the point of WCF 19. That’s why we confess “general equity” and not “the abiding validity….etc”

    Deuteronomy 4:5-6 says:

    5 “Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess. 6 Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’

    Looks to me that Israel was a model to the peoples (nations), not just the future Israel.

    And I guess Ezra didn’t get the message either, when he praised a PAGAN king for implementing God’s, er uh, I guess I mean ISRAEL’S law.

    I guess that Jonah had the right idea and God should have realized that He was mistaken to send an Israelite prophet to a PAGAN nation.

    Then there’s the case of setting up a straw man to knock it down. I’m sorry Dr. Clark, but where in any writings of the major proponents of Theonomy did they ever say that the USA should be Israel? Or that any civil entity should be Israel? Did any of them take exception officially to the confession on the point of the judicial laws of Israel? To the contrary, they teach that Israel’s judicial code is an example of case law that shows how the Ten Commandments can be applied specifically to certain cases. They upheld the “General Equity” clause by constantly explaining that a case law such as putting a railing around your roof in those days would be something akin to a fence around your pool today, or a speed limit today.

    I know you’re tired of having dealt with “us guys” for so long, but is it too much to ask (respectfully of course) that if you’re going to get involved anyway, that maybe you can at least deal with real Theonomic positions instead of straw men, and misrepresentations? Straw men are just too easy to knock down.

    Theonomy is just the inference necessary to stay coherent within Reformed Covenant Theology. It’s a hermeneutic first and foremost. And the fact that the conclusions drawn for the civil magistrate are things that modern day pluralists don’t like doesn’t mean that the culture or the civil magistrate is the only thing that Theonomy speaks to. It is just plain old Calvinism and it says that God is sovereign over EVERYTHING. Over the individual, the family, the church and (then) the state. It is an ethical philosophy learned from scripture.

    Speaking to the culture isn’t only about law. It is about Gospel. Everything is about the Gospel. The Good News that since we were powerless to walk according to God’s ethical demands and therefore deserved eternal wrath and damnation, He took care of everything and gave us His Spirit and wrote those ethical demands on our hearts so that we can walk according to His ethical standards, progressively getting better at it over our life in history, but never seeing perfection until the consummation, and then, we will finally have the perfect ability to NOT SIN, aka walk according to His law. The Gospel includes this.

    Blessings to all,

    kazoo

  24. Kazoo,

    That’s not a Reformed hermeneutic.

    Yes, the nations were to pay attention to National Israel. Is there still a national covenant? With whom? England? Canada? the USA? Mexico? All of them? Are we all to go to war with each other?

    You give me an identity of national Israel with contemporary civil entities — despite the massive lack of evidence in the NT that the Apostolic church read the Scriptures this way or had any sort of transformational agenda.

    I give you WCF 19 and you ignore it.

    The divines rejected the abiding validity of the civil law in exhaustive detail.

    As I’ve already said to you more than once they were theocrats but they weren’t theonomists. It’s not the same thing.

    Once more: Where does the NT church (as an institution not as an organism) go about transforming the culture? Where is that mandate?

    You still have a sort of dispensational hermeneutic. Rather than allowing national Israel to be, as Hebrews, Paul, and Peter regard, a type of the church (1 Cor 10) you make it the paradigm to be resurrected.

    We’re in Zion and theonomy wants to move back to Sinai. You guys don’t get Gal 4. Nor do you get Gal 3 or Heb 7:11-14. The priesthood changed and and with it the LAW changed. The Mosaic/Old Covenant is toast. It’s finito. It’s caput. You can’t bring back from the dead. Not the civil law, not the ceremonial law.

  25. Ron Smith says:

    Dr. Clark said,

    Why should Christians engage the culture? Because it’s a creational law. We were commanded to name things. We are commanded to steward creation.

    But Adam did not receive this creational law via natural revelation, did he? And didn’t he get all his instruction as to how to steward creation via special revelation? And since that was before the fall, doesn’t an a fortiori argument apply to us after the fall?

    Dr. Clark, is it your position that God commands us via natural revelation to engage the culture? And if we are commanded via special revelation to engage the culture, are we then left to determine via natural revelation the standard of engagement? Or may we engage the culture in any fashion we deem appropriate?

  26. Ron Smith says:

    You are equivocating with “govern”, switching between how the C.M. should govern his own life and how he should govern somebody else’s life.

    No, I am not. I affirm that there is a difference between the way the civil magistrate governs his own life and the way he governs his constituents, which is why I did not say that they were the same.

    Note how far you went from what I actually said. I said “the standard the civil magistrate should *live by*”, and you took it to mean “standard the civil magistrate should *enforce*.” I did not say they were the same.

    What I tried to convey, and will attempt here again, is that the way the civil magistrate handles a murderer, for instance, is part and parcel of how he governs *his own life*. For instance, if he lets the murderer go free, or executes the jaywalker, he is not governing *his own life* in accordance to the standard of God’s Law, which you already agreed was the standard by which we should live. Are you with me so far?

    If a civil magistrate finds himself in the *we* of that affirmation of yours, according to your view, the Law of God does not tell him how to perform his vocation righteously. He has to figure it out for himself. Is that correct? Or is there no right or wrong way to perform the office of civil magistrate? Is there no antithesis in politics?

  27. kazooless says:

    I’m at least trying to argue with the actual arguments you’re making in this thread. I’m pasting your previous comment and making direct responses now. The following blockquotes are from Dr. Clark. Then my responses:

    That’s not a Reformed hermeneutic.

    My friend Paul Manata likes to call statements like that: “Bare Naked Assertions.” You could call my statement the same thing, so I’ll give you this to back it up: the reformed view of paedobaptism is an example of the same hermeneutic, abiding validity assumed unless the sovereign changes it. He changed the sign and expanded the adherents, but we still assume that children are recipients.

    Yes, the nations were to pay attention to National Israel. Is there still a national covenant? With whom? England? Canada? the USA? Mexico? All of them? Are we all to go to war with each other?

    Sorry, did I assert that there should be a “national covenant?” Do any of the theonomy “Rabbis” (as you call them on the Puritanboard) suggest that each nation should have a national covenant? I don’t remember saying that in this particular discussion for sure. So why bring that up in this discussion? I have to admit I wonder if it is tactic instead of genuine argument.

    You give me an identity of national Israel with contemporary civil entities — despite the massive lack of evidence in the NT that the Apostolic church read the Scriptures this way or had any sort of transformational agenda.

    Please. How about 610 pages of exegetical exhaustive support to the contrary in Greg Bahnsen’s book: Theonomy in Christian Ethics? This was his master’s thesis accepted by your seminary! Nobody has taken this book and gone over the thesis chapter by chapter and given it a full, thorough, and fair critique. NOBODY. I wonder why that is? I have yet to find a discussion with anybody that even fairly represents the position they argue against. I keep looking for it though.

    I give you WCF 19 and you ignore it.

    I ignore it? I know we’re all busy people with lives that exist apart from the blog world, but you’re participating here, so I would think you did more than skim what i wrote. But just to remind everyone what I said and to show that I DIDN’T IGNORE WCF 19, take another look at what I wrote:

    QUOTING KAZOO:
    “Did any of them take exception officially to the confession on the point of the judicial laws of Israel? To the contrary, they teach that Israel’s judicial code is an example of case law that shows how the Ten Commandments can be applied specifically to certain cases. They upheld the “General Equity” clause by constantly explaining that a case law such as putting a railing around your roof in those days would be something akin to a fence around your pool today, or a speed limit today.”

    And here is chapter 19, paragraph 4 that shows I was specifically dealing with your reference to it:

    WESTMINSTER 19:4:
    “IV. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other, now, further than the general equity thereof may require.”

    The divines rejected the abiding validity of the civil law in exhaustive detail.

    Another bare naked assertion. By divines I assume you’re speaking of the Westminster authors. But even so, this isn’t even a statement needed to be defended against by me. It’s another straw man. You see, I’ve actually read Bahnen’s book. You make a reference to the title of his chapter two, where he defends his thesis. Only you ADDED a word to make it look worse than it really is. ANOTHER STRAW MAN. Here’s the actual chapter title: “Chapter 2
    THE ABIDING VALIDITY OF THE LAW
    IN EXHAUSTIVE DETAIL
    (Matthew 5:17-19)”

    Notice the word that is missing there? The adjective “civil.” Plus, it is the very beginning of the book. He adds 23 more chapters, and four appendices to further explain what he means and what he doesn’t mean. It is a dishonest type of argumentation to just throw out a phrase that misrepresents the position you’re arguing against. Appendix 2 of TiCE deals with the divines and what they wrote about the civil magistrate. Maybe you can find in that something that Bahnsen, (Theonomy), really says about the divines that you can disagree with.

    As I’ve already said to you more than once they were theocrats but they weren’t theonomists. It’s not the same thing.

    This was in a private discussion between you and me and I have kept that to myself. Since then, I’ve been perusing the places you told me to look for your writings against the subject. I am not done looking and so haven’t responded yet. However, so far, I don’t know what you mean by saying the two are different. And as far as I know, you disagree with both anyway, so what difference does it make? Also, the “Rabbis” I’ve learned from constantly went back to these “theocrats” and used their historical examples to teach what they are teaching. They don’t just use there names and say they were “theonomists” and hope nobody looks them up. In other words, they used the historical examples of the “theocrats” to illustrate what they think is the right way of doing things or of thinking, etc.

    Once more: Where does the NT church (as an institution not as an organism) go about transforming the culture? Where is that mandate?

    Finally, an actual question that pertains. And yet this comment is getting so long already! Answer, “transforming the culture” is a RESULT of “making disciples” of “the nations.” This mandate is in Matthew 28, “The Great Commission.” I gave you reference to an entire EXEGETICAL book written by Ken Gentry (yes, another Rabbi). Psalm 2, Kiss the Son. Or how about appealing to your “creation mandate?” Tend the garden. Fill the earth.

    BTW, does name calling all of these guys as “Rabbis” and asserting that we can expect another Talmud because of them, count as just another disingenuous tactic? How about name calling as “Neo-Kuyperians” or “Barthians” or “Anabaptists?” Is that really a good way of teaching? Or instructing? Or at least supporting ones arguments? I thought it was referred to as a fallacious argument known as something like “guilt by association” or “ad hominem” or something like that.

    You still have a sort of dispensational hermeneutic. Rather than allowing national Israel to be, as Hebrews, Paul, and Peter regard, a type of the church (1 Cor 10) you make it the paradigm to be resurrected.

    Sorry, no. I don’t want Israel back. I don’t want to live in the shadows or types. I don’t want a priesthood that can’t sit down. I don’t want ongoing sacrifices. I much prefer an intercessor that is living and eternal. A sacrifice that was once and for all. A priest from the order of Melkizadec. Yes, there are some ways that Israel was a type of the church. But you can’t take that and say that EVERYTHING about Israel was a type of the church. I much prefer to let scripture tell me what was and wasn’t a type, instead of reading too much into it and adding to the Word. And if you can get the idea that “national Israel…” is a “paradigm to be resurrected” from TiCE, I’d be shocked.

    We’re in Zion and theonomy wants to move back to Sinai. You guys don’t get Gal 4. Nor do you get Gal 3 or Heb 7:11-14. The priesthood changed and and with it the LAW changed. The Mosaic/Old Covenant is toast. It’s finito. It’s caput. You can’t bring back from the dead. Not the civil law, not the ceremonial law.

    Appendix 1 of TiCE is on part of Galations 3. There is an entire lecture series on http://www.cmfnow.com from Bahnsen on Galations available. Bahnsen deals with Hebrews 7:11-14 at least 5 times throughout his book. Page 224 speaks directly to a reading of it that seems to contradict the thesis and then refutes it.

    Where is it that we want to go back to Sanai? Which of my “Rabbis” pushes that? Who wants the ceremonial law as given on Sanai back? WRT the civil, which “Rabbi” teaches that the exact judicial codes should be re-instituted (in contradiction to WCF 19:4)?

    I’m sorry Dr. Clark, but I love scripture. I love my savior. I love my church. I love the Westminster Standards. I love learning from the invaluable treasure of God’s oracles and dealing with scriptural arguments, exposition, etc. I’m looking on the old sites you told me to look so that you don’t have to re-hash them. When I find them, I’ll really try to deal with them. Either to sharpen myself, or to reform to the correct view if mine is wrong. But only scripture, and scriptural arguments are going to help me there. Not ad homonyms, or other fallacious arguments.

    Last question for all to think about. If Bahnsen’s thesis was SO heretical, or at least SO MUCH in error, then WHY OH WHY did Westminster Seminary accept it and award him his degree?

    May God Bless His Word and the Gospel in this world,

    kazoo

  28. Zrim says:

    Ron said,

    “Note how far you went from what I actually said. I said ‘the standard the civil magistrate should *live by*’, and you took it to mean ‘standard the civil magistrate should *enforce*.’ I did not say they were the same.”

    This is a good example of the difference between hard theonomists and soft (aka transformationalists).

    Ron doesn’t want things institutionally enforced, just abided by out of the goodness of the heart (another departure from Calvinism). This is the inside-out version over against the outside-in. The former is organic, subjective, experiential. The latter is institutional, objective, law-oriented.

    Just like soft law sounds better than hard law, Jesus is still not the New Moses. Indeed, soft law can actually be more tyrannical because it comes with a smile instead of a scowl and appears to be our friend.Moreover, Ron, don’t you see the obvious disconnect between saying there is no relationship between “enforce” and “abide by”? I mean, do you really think that we should say, “Murder is bad. You shouldn’t do it. But if you do, nothing will happen to you.” You have to enforce what is lawful. Hard theonomy at least makes that much sense. You softees don’t.

    If soft-theonomy is right then I should be able to go to my sheriff and tell him to “toss out the laws because the Cross was the kick-off to make all things new, from the inside out, don’t worry, we are making Christians out of everyone.” I don’t know about you (well, maybe I do), but I’d expect my sheriff to laugh in my face; I’d rather rely on law to keep my criminals–Xian and non–at bay, not a convoluded notion of grace.

    Since you are not going to eat that heaping helping of Calvinism, Ron, pass it over here. I love the stuff.

  29. RubeRad says:

    Ron doesn’t want things institutionally enforced, just abided by out of the goodness of the heart

    I can attest that that’s just not true. Z, I think you misread Ron there. Ron expects the civil magistrate to enforce both tables of the law, in the most direct possible analogy (general equity) to the Mosaic administration. If anybody is a “soft theonomist” (by your definition), it would be me, because I expect that (hypothetical) global-scale increases in the number of justified and sanctified people, would nearly eliminate the need for a civil magistrate.

    Smile!

  30. RubeRad says:

    asserting that we can expect another Talmud

    Isn’t that what this book is?

  31. Zrim says:

    Rube,

    OK, fair enough. Sorry, Ron….Rube, gimme your bowl of Calvinism.

    So, Ron hard, Rube soft. Do Outhouses have Outhouses to them, or do I have to make due with the corner over here?

    Points awarded to Rube for publically admitting what I have always privately suspected.

  32. RubeRad says:

    according to your view, the Law of God does not tell him how to perform his vocation righteously. He has to figure it out for himself. Is that correct?

    Does the Law of God tell you how to administrate databases righteously? Or does it tell me how to write software righteously? (Am I to take my bugs captive for Christ? Or is it a matter of sanctification that I code fewer and fewer bugs per 1000 lines of code as I am renewed in the whole man?)

    Or does the Law of God tell us to work hard, be honest, and love our bosses, coworkers and clients — and beyond that, we have to figure it out for ourselves?

  33. RubeRad says:

    (And then you say, “But God did specify the job description of the civil magistrate in the O.T.!”, and then I say “But that begs the question of whether God’s intent was for Israel to be the model on which all civil governments are founded”…

    Hey look, mulberries!)

  34. kazooless says:

    I give points to Rube too. I’ll forever hold that admission close to my heart! 🙂

    Rube, to your question, I don’t know, have you read it? Have you read the talmud? What would the difference be between an expository book written about biblical law and a modern Theonomic talmud?

    The point is, that’s really just name calling, not actual arguing. At least not without support. My understanding of the Talmud is that it carried authority for the CM’s.

    kazoo

  35. Ron Smith says:

    I agree with what Rube has said about my position.

    I also noticed that no one answered my question.

    If the Law of God is the standard by which all men live, and the civil magistrate is a man (or sometimes a woman, sadly), then the Law of God is the standard by which the civil magistrate must live. I think we all agree this far.

    I think where we disconnect is where I go on to say that the way a civil magistrate handles a criminal is part of the way the civil magistrate *himself* lives, and thus, must also be governed by God’s Law.

    God’s Law tells the tradesman how to be honest in trading with equal weights and measures. God’s Law tells the master how to deal justly with his slaves. God’s Law tells the minister how to discipline and protect his sheep. God’s Law tells the father how to discipline his children. God’s Law speaks to every vocation imaginable, but not to the civil magistrate? When a civil magistrate is faced with a rapist, where does he go to determine what penalty, if any, he should prescribe for rape? If he cannot go to God’s Law, there is only one place left to go.

  36. Ron Smith says:

    Does the Law of God tell you how to administrate databases righteously?

    Yes. If I fudge data to make false reports to inflate markets, I have managed a database unrighteously. My vocation falls in the category of servant/tradesman and God speaks specifically to those vocations.

  37. Ron Smith says:

    Also, the fact that every aspect of our life is not governed by God’s Law directly (like what color shirt I chose today) does not mean that God’s Law has nothing to say to the matter. God’s Law says *NOT TO ADD TO IT*. So, in areas where God is silent (like civil restrictions on the education of our children), we are to consider the matter one of *LIBERTY*. It is *WRONG* and *SINFUL* for the civil government to make a law where God has allowed liberty by being silent.

  38. RubeRad says:

    publicly admitting what I have always privately suspected.

    Hey now, I’m not any kind of theonomist by your definitions! (Not even “closet”). I’m just saying, if Z wants to define that kind of transformationalism-due-to-sanctification as “soft theonomy”, then sure, whatever. BTW, I see this as the same as what Clark said above about the NT church transforming culture “as an organism”, not “as an institution”.

    And Z, “if soft-theonomy is true” would not imply that we could go tell the sherrif to toss out the lawbook and retire. That would only work if we reach a Millenial golden-age where the number of justified people, and the aggregate degree of their sanctification, are so great that criminal sin would have greatly diminished to a point that the few remaining criminals would be lonely in their mostly-empty jails, many fewer judges and policemen and lawyers would be required to process the low occurrence of crime, etc.

    Mind you, there would still be plenty of sin left in peoples’ lives, and even plenty of outward sin. But Criminal sin is such a small fraction of all sin! I mean, look at me — amongst the unquantifiable number of sins that I have committed in my life, I’ve only done maybe a few dozen illegal things (not counting traffic infractions), and nothing capital (that goes for our laws as well as Moses’).

  39. RubeRad says:

    It is *WRONG* and *SINFUL* for the civil government to make a law where God has allowed liberty by being silent.

    Yeah, I’ll be getting to that…

  40. Ron Smith says:

    Or does the Law of God tell us to work hard, be honest, and love our bosses, coworkers and clients — and beyond that, we have to figure it out for ourselves?

    Lastly, I have to point out the huge problem with this thinking. If you believe that the civil magistrate is supposed to *figure out for himself* matters of justice, then you haven’t comprehended the Bible. Justice belongs to God.

    In your way of thinking, it could be *just* if the civil magistrate deemed it so, to execute people of a certain age, ethnicity, or mental capacity. He could *figure out for himself* that these sorts of people are a drain on society, and thus round them all up and execute them. It can’t count as murder in your view because he made a law legalizing the action. Where do you go to tell him that this sort of activity is *SINFUL*? Or would you?

  41. RubeRad says:

    Yes. If I fudge data to make false reports to inflate markets, I have managed a database unrighteously.

    And if a civil magistrate takes bribes, or applies the laws he is responsible for inconsistently to various classes of people, or takes justice into his own hands by overstepping the laws he is responsible for administrating, then he has been unrighteous. That is the form, or manner of what is he to do, just like you have described the manner in which you do your job.

    An entirely separate question is the question content. The bible says zero about database administration (so you absolutely must figure it out for yourself), and the question is whether the content of the Mosaic civil law is applicable to civil magistrates in all other nations, or whether each society has to use what God has written in their hearts to “figure it out for themselves”?

    Even the theonomist must agree that the civil magistrate has to “figure out for himself” what is the general equity of the biblical case law in his own context. My strong’s concordance doesn’t have “fudge” or “data” in it anywhere, so you must have “figured out for yourself” how “keep your thumb off the scales” applies to your job.

  42. Zrim says:

    Rube,

    “BTW, I see this as the same as what Clark said above about the NT church transforming culture “as an organism”, not “as an institution”.”

    I am not so sure that what Kuyper meant with his organism/institution taxonomy was neo-Kuyperianism. And given what Clark has said about nature and grace, it is hard for me to believe he means “soft theonomy” or any form of Po-Mo transformationalism, such yours that has sin and unbelief swallowed up by belief.

    Your hypotheticals imply possibility. I am never sure what is gained by all this. I might as well say, “If water covers the earth everything will be flooded.” Yeah, true, but why are you even playing with the notion? Do you think this will happen? If not, why don’t we come back down to earth and deal realistically, especially since “there will be plenty of sin left in peeoples’ lives”?

    Besides, are you saying you have done nothing “capital” due to your faith? I grew up in unbelief and plenty of us were just as “un-capital.”

  43. RubeRad says:

    In your way of thinking, it could be *just* if the civil magistrate deemed it so, to execute people of a certain age, ethnicity, or mental capacity. He could *figure out for himself* that these sorts of people are a drain on society, and thus round them all up and execute them. It can’t count as murder in your view because he made a law legalizing the action. Where do you go to tell him that this sort of activity is *SINFUL*? Or would you?

    First off, you act as if a civil magistrate can just up and autocratically/arbitrarily establish and execute the law — as if “the law” is defined as whatever the civil magistrate feels like at any time, which is not the case.

    Second, even though people need to figure out law stuff for themselves, does not mean that the stuff they figure out, is the law. People figure out stuff wrong. I’m sure that no matter how much of the rest of your life you could spend writing Righteous Database Administration (the compendium of what you have figured out), you would not have figured it out perfectly.

    So a written law can be just, or unjust. And people can recognize this by using their God-given consciences.

    This is not to say that a civil magistrate that is handed an unjust law to enforce gets off scot-free if he enforces it without question. The civil magistrate has the responsibility to monitor the laws he is enforcing against his conscience, and when he encounters an unjust law, to get it fixed (which involves politicking with others to convince them that their common consciences agree that the law is unjust).

  44. Zrim says:

    Ron,

    “In your way of thinking, it could be *just* if the civil magistrate deemed it so, to execute people of a certain age, ethnicity, or mental capacity.”

    Where does the category of authority play a role? You seem to imply that an authority’s behavior might erode its authority. Rome crucified people, a form of punishment that today’s standards deem “inhumane,” etc. Yet Jesus instructed to render unto Caesar and Paul tells us that the government is God’s servant, etc. Neither was so American about it that we can decide for ourselves if authority is legit based upon the authority’s behavior.

    The NT seems to have more to say about authority than 21st century notions of justice, etc. It could be said that submitting to authority is more Xian than telling it how “un/righteous” it is, which is actually more American.

  45. Zrim says:

    Rube,

    Same question for you, I guess: what about the category of authority? You seem to be fighting Americanism with more Americanism.

  46. RubeRad says:

    I am not so sure that what Kuyper meant with his organism/institution taxonomy was neo-Kuyperianism.

    To quote Kuyper ,

    We can exert power for good, therefore, only if we are prepared to drum it into our heads that the church of Christ can never exert influence on civil society directly, only indirectly

    You also said:

    And given what Clark has said about nature and grace, it is hard for me to believe he means “soft theonomy”

    I don’t know that he’s followed this thread this long, but I doubt he would call it “soft theonomy”, nor do I think it’s a useful term. You introduced it, and I’m saying I don’t agree that the term is applicable to the concept that the world would be a better place if there were more sanctification around.

    Besides, are you saying you have done nothing “capital” due to your faith? I grew up in unbelief and plenty of us were just as “un-capital.”

    I don’t know what you’re asking, but I’m saying that I have never committed a crime that merits capital punishment — neither according to U.S. law, or Mosaic law.

    Here’s what I’m saying: what is the per capita usage of judicial resources among members-in-good-standing of Westminster- or Three-Forms-confessing churches, as compared to “genpop”? I don’t ask “American Christians vs. American non-Christians”, because American Christianity as a whole is too antinomian, and that will skew the statistics. But among the population for whom the church is doing its proper job (Word, Sacraments, Discipline, and nothing more), I guarantee you there is very, very little criminal activity going on. And if (big, big if, of course), such a Church grew to cover the world as the waters cover the sea, then I maintain that crime rates would commensurately plummet.

    As Paul explained to Timothy, “The law is for the lawless”. It makes no difference to me that there is no law forbidding (and punishing) abortion. As a Christian, and as a person with at least a moderately unsuppressed conscience, I know that murdering babies is wrong. But as they say, “There oughta be a law” — and that law would be there not for me, but for those who would (do) kill their babies.

    Your hypotheticals imply possibility. …Why are you even playing with the notion? Do you think this will happen?

    Because theonomists are wrong, and even they can only argue in the mode of “if we had/once we have enough Christians…” So convincing them they are wrong necessarily involves stepping into their shoes sometimes.

  47. Zrim says:

    Oh. So you are in the business of persuading theonomists. Well, good luck, sir. This seems an awful lot like when you blame Arminians for being Arminian. For my part, it’s good enough to know I am right and they are wrong. Plus, my wife says she likes my forehead free of flat spots.

    I am still interested in what anyone might have to say about authority. I say it is more Christian to obey and submit than it is to either champion or disparage Caesar about his non/behavior/s.

  48. RubeRad says:

    Yes, call me Don Quixote. If Jeff and Ron were not in my church, I would undoubtedly be less involved (likewise if I had not grown up in church with Albino “I’m not Arminian but my theology is” Hayford)

    Unfortunately, this “business” doesn’t pay very well. I keep sending Jeff and Ron bills for all the valuable education I’m giving them, but they won’t pay up!

  49. RubeRad says:

    About authority, I would say it is not Christian to obey and submit if laws are actually evil (obey God rather than men). But generally, by common grace, civil magistrates do pretty well with the consciences God gave them (Rom 13, Gal 5:23), so for laws that are merely disagreeable, but not evil, I agree we should obey and submit.

    For instance, the speed limits around here top out at 75. So we could argue about whether the speed limit should be 55 or 95, or nothing at all on the freeways, but while the limit is 75, as a Christian I should submit to that law (where submit = respectfully and honestly admit to CHiPs that I was driving over 75 if they pull me over, and promptly pay the specified fine, and not drive if they take my license away due to too many points)

    Or, if I lived in a dry county (or somehow San Diego county went dry), as a Christian in submission to the civil authorities God has placed over me, I should restrict my alcoholic intake to the wine of the Lord’s supper only.

  50. Zrim says:

    “About authority, I would say it is not Christian to obey and submit if laws are actually evil (obey God rather than men). But generally, by common grace, civil magistrates do pretty well with the consciences God gave them (Rom 13, Gal 5:23), so for laws that are merely disagreeable, but not evil, I agree we should obey and submit.”

    Why do I get the feeling the civil magistrates of your own time and place (and mine, so ours) get a lot of rope while those with which you may not be so familiar would get choked up on a lot more?

    It still seems like your fingers are conveniently crossed: “I don’t have to obey if Caesar doesn’t pass muster on what I think is ‘actually evil,’ but if he does well with what is ‘merely disagreeable’ then I will render my submission.” Still seems really, really democratic and barely Pauline.

  51. Ron Smith says:

    Check it out, Kazoo. The anti-theonoms are arguing over standards for civil authorities. 😆

    I’ll respond to this later, just had to chuckle. It is so much clearer being a theonomist.

  52. Zrim says:

    Ron,

    Maybe it’s clearer. But it also seems more tedious to always be pulling out your Bible to decide every little thing, especially when that isn’t even the point of the thing. If I were campaigning for W2K in the early 90s against the theonomist platforms the slogan would something like this: “It’s fulfillment, stupid.” Anyone here old enough to get that?

  53. Bret McAtee says:

    Where do we see Paul transforming the culture? Nowhere!

    23About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way. 24A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought in no little business for the craftsmen. 25He called them together, along with the workmen in related trades, and said: “Men, you know we receive a good income from this business. 26And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made gods are no gods at all. 27There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty.”

    28When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” 29Soon the whole city was in an uproar. The people seized Gaius and Aristarchus, Paul’s traveling companions from Macedonia, and rushed as one man into the theater. 30Paul wanted to appear before the crowd, but the disciples would not let him. 31Even some of the officials of the province, friends of Paul, sent him a message begging him not to venture into the theater.

    32The assembly was in confusion: Some were shouting one thing, some another. Most of the people did not even know why they were there. 33The Jews pushed Alexander to the front, and some of the crowd shouted instructions to him. He motioned for silence in order to make a defense before the people. 34But when they realized he was a Jew, they all shouted in unison for about two hours: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”

    35The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: “Men of Ephesus, doesn’t all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven? 36Therefore, since these facts are undeniable, you ought to be quiet and not do anything rash. 37You have brought these men here, though they have neither robbed temples nor blasphemed our goddess. 38If, then, Demetrius and his fellow craftsmen have a grievance against anybody, the courts are open and there are proconsuls. They can press charges. 39If there is anything further you want to bring up, it must be settled in a legal assembly. 40As it is, we are in danger of being charged with rioting because of today’s events. In that case we would not be able to account for this commotion, since there is no reason for it.” 41After he had said this, he dismissed the assembly.

    So the Gospel comes to Ephesus and the result is

    Ephesian Economics were being transformed

    Ephesian Political structures were being affected

    When the Gospel sweeps over a culture and replaces the god or gods in the current culture or even threatens to do so the result is that the culture is transformed.

    You can deny it all you like… it is an inescapable reality.

  54. Zrim says:

    Brett,

    And the Apostles get martyred…hmmm. Does a transformed society really string up those to whom they owe all this wonder?

    Does your prebytery know you are really a Methodist?

    Seriously, theonomy (hard and soft) is the propserity gospel of statecraft. “Transformation” is the power-word of the spirit of this age: transform your inner-being, your society, your relationships, your health, etc. There are just so many versions of “health and wealth.”

    You should get your own show on Christian TV.

  55. RubeRad says:

    It still seems like your fingers are conveniently crossed: “I don’t have to obey if Caesar doesn’t pass muster on what I think is ‘actually evil,’

    It’s not that tough: Theonomist or W2K, all Christians are responsible for judging when to invoke Acts 5:29 to trump Rom 13. And since it’s a matter of judgment, yes some Christians will make that judgment wrong, and thus end up sinning by either submitting to evil laws, or resisting just laws.

    Unless you think that only Apostolic authority can invoke Acts 5:29?

  56. RubeRad says:

    Check it out, Kazoo. The anti-theonoms are arguing over standards for civil authorities.

    From where I stand, he’s more 2K than me or even WSCAL’s W2K. I call his position Z2K. So it might look like I’m on your team when I pull him in my direction, but it’s just an illusion. Like when Old Testament prophets peer into the future and conflate the Church Age with the Age beyond, leading some people to postmillenialism.

  57. B. McAtee says:

    And the Apostles get martyred…hmmm. Does a transformed society really string up those to whom they owe all this wonder?

    One doesn’t get to transformed without going through transforming. So, yes, on the way to transformed people may very possibly get strung up. It’s the postmillennialists, because of their advocacy of Christ’s Lordship who are persecuted for the Kingdom. I’m never quite sure why anybody would want to persecute an a-mill person unless they somehow were mistaken for being post-mill — I mean, why would anybody find an a-mill believer to be threatening enough to want to persecute?

    Does your prebytery know you are really a Methodist?

    Does your Session know you are really a cultural relativist?

    Seriously, theonomy (hard and soft) is the propserity gospel of statecraft. “Transformation” is the power-word of the spirit of this age: transform your inner-being, your society, your relationships, your health, etc. There are just so many versions of “health and wealth.”

    Seriously, Radical two Kingdom theology is the cultural anti-nomianism of the Church. R2Kt is the means by which a-millennialism thinks it can achieve self-fulfilled prophecy. “If we don’t engage the culture, then it will get worse and worse and that will force Jesus to come back.”

    You should get your own show on Christian TV.

    Will you be my Vanna and turn the pretty letters?

  58. Ron Smith says:

    First off, you act as if a civil magistrate can just up and autocratically/arbitrarily establish and execute the law — as if “the law” is defined as whatever the civil magistrate feels like at any time, which is not the case.

    It is the case if he is a tyrant! And by your worldview, I see no reason why he should not be a tyrant. Is whether or not he is a tyrant the content of his vocation, or the form of his vocation (according to your fallacious dichotomy)?

    If the content, then the scripture says nothing to him about whether or not he should be a tyrant. He can kill anyone he wants to because he makes the rules.

    If the form, then the Bible apparently tells him he cannot be tyrannical which means he cannot make tyrannical laws like “Thou shalt not home school.”

    Second, even though people need to figure out law stuff for themselves, does not mean that the stuff they figure out, is the law. People figure out stuff wrong.

    Not if you are a civil magistrate in Rube’s world and it is your job to figure out laws. There is no right and wrong. There is no standard. Anything goes, right? The civil magistrate can just reach deep into his *SEARED CONSCIENCE* and determine for himself what is right and what is wrong. Isn’t that your position? Even if he is not a tyrant and he has to depend on the people to reach deep into their *COLLECTIVELY SEARED CONSCIENCES* and determine for themselves what is right and what is wrong, you are still in the same sinking boat.

    You are just like an atheist, bro. Just like the atheist won’t admit that they have no basis whatsoever for *personal* ethics, you won’t admit that you have no basis whatsoever for *civil* ethics. But you have none. If you have one, now is the time to present it. How does a civil magistrate *figure out* justice without an objective standard of justice?

  59. Ron Smith says:

    I’m never quite sure why anybody would want to persecute an a-mill person unless they somehow were mistaken for being post-mill — I mean, why would anybody find an a-mill believer to be threatening enough to want to persecute?

    YES! BAM! Now work the body, Brett! Get in there between those ribs! *DING* *DING*

    Will you be my Vanna and turn the pretty letters?

    😆
    I remember saying somewhere around here that w2k could have saved the martyrs. “Oh yes Caesar, you are the Savior of the World. Jesus is just a different sort of savior of the world.” Talk about rendering unto Caesar…

  60. RubeRad says:

    Is whether or not he is a tyrant the content of his vocation, or the form of his vocation?

    The form is dictator, and the bible doesn’t seem to have anything against kings. What distinguishes a dictator from a tyrant is the content of his rule.

    There is no right and wrong. There is no standard. Anything goes, right? The civil magistrate can just reach deep into his *SEARED CONSCIENCE* and determine for himself what is right and what is wrong.

    Yes, he can use his seared conscience to make unjust laws, just as you can kick my door down and shoot me in the face. Neither of those facts mean that “there is no right and wrong”.

  61. kazooless says:

    Rube,

    You and zrim discussing questions of the magistrates responsibilities is question begging. You are *BORROWING* from the Christian worldview when you discuss the standards he should rule by. You say that they should figure out laws by using general revelation. But, you can only say that because you think that is what the Bible teaches. So you refute yourself. You have to prove that general revelation reveals to you that general revelation reveals a magistrates moral standards. So, you must presuppose general revelation.

    Guess its time to throw out any of the Van Til you learned. Last I checked, the Bible was the sole authority that is presupposed. Oh, that’s right, the earth looks like it is millions of years old, so you presuppose its age before you read the Bible. Do I see a pattern here?

    And where did our friend Dr. Clark go? Guess the tar-baby I unleashed was just too much for him, you know asking for real arguments and stuff. Now my (long) comment is buried so far down that I’m sure it will continue to be ignored.

    Oh well. Looking forward to camping tomorrow with you bro.

    Peace and Grace,

    kazoo

  62. Ron Smith says:

    Rube says of the Civil Magistrate,

    Yes, he can use his seared conscience to make unjust laws, just as you can kick my door down and shoot me in the face. Neither of those facts mean that “there is no right and wrong”.

    But how is right and wrong to be defined? By wrong, do you mean sinful? If sinful, then what is sin if not any want of conformity unto or transgression of the Law of God? And if not sinful, then you have a double standard of right and wrong, one in relation to God’s Law and one independent of God’s Law. This is clearly contrary to scripture, even the New Testament.

    2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    All good works are defined by God’s Word. So the question is this: When a Civil Magistrate handles a criminal justly, does that qualify as a good work, or is it a work somehow outside biblical standards of good and evil, right and wrong, just and unjust?

    You already said the civil magistrate could make unjust laws. By what standard of justice can you tell if his laws are unjust? By whether or not they sit well with you? That’s called arbitrariness and it is the “ethical” standard of atheists. Rube, why not just admit that when it comes to politics, you are a practical atheist?

  63. Bret McAtee says:

    Ron,

    The answer to your questions is that they appeal to Natural law as the standard by which public square ethics can be determined.

    Now, it is a lousy argument that was abandoned in mass in the 20th century, but that’s there answer.

    They are trying, along with Roman Catholics, to resurrect Natural Law theory.

    Bret

  64. RubeRad says:

    Rube, why not just admit that when it comes to politics, you are a practical atheist?

    If you admit that when it comes to soteriology, you are a practical Arminian, I’ll think about it.

  65. Ron Smith says:

    Red Herring. If Rube does not address the issues at hand that I have raised, he demonstrates that he has no basis for civil ethics and is in the same sinking ship as the atheists with regard to ethics in general.

  66. Zrim says:

    Rube,

    Re Acts 5:29, doesn’t context count for anything? The whole passage is about testifying to the resurrection of Jesus. It has everything to do with cultic truth and nothing to do with cultural.

  67. Zrim says:

    “From where I stand, he’s more 2K than me or even WSCAL’s W2K. I call his position Z2K.”

    But, Rube, I agree with DVD that unbelieving families and marriages are “complete.” You don’t.

    I think Brett has a phrase for that: R2K (radical…or RubeRad?).

  68. Zrim says:

    “R2Kt is the means by which a-millennialism thinks it can achieve self-fulfilled prophecy. ‘If we don’t engage the culture, then it will get worse and worse and that will force Jesus to come back.'”

    You have W2K mistaken with Fundamentalism. That happens a lot. But try tracking with the liturgicals. You may even learn how to chew gum and walk at once.

    I engage culture up one side and down the other. I just don’t transform it.

  69. Zrim says:

    “I mean, why would anybody find an a-mill believer to be threatening enough to want to persecute?”

    Because worldly leaders want full allegience. And, sooner or later, depending on the time and place, not endorsing is a way of resisting. Post-mills are more than willing to endorse since they create a category for “un/godly.” I’d rather get strung up by Nazi’s for being silent about Adolf than shaking hands with an American President because his worldview is “godly.” Something tells me Adolf will have my head a whole lot sooner for not endorsing than Dubya. We don’t often think of things in this way because we are anachronistic about the (amil) Apostles’ time and place. Their worldly leaders did not want to share one ounce of glory. Post-mills are willing to let Jesus’ throne be shared. Sure, they might get strung up because the ungoldy category means they must directly fight Caesar. But they should get strung up for the right reasons, which don’t include being rebellious against God’s servant. The right reason is when God’s servant demands to share Jesus’ throne. That’s where Daniel drew his line, at cultic truth. After all, he was educated in a “worldly way.” And nary a word is mentioned about “transforming” the King’s educational pedagogy.

    Eventually, even Ghandi wants us to call him Lord and will have our heads for resisting.

  70. RubeRad says:

    You and zrim discussing questions of the magistrates responsibilities is question begging. You are *BORROWING* from the Christian worldview when you discuss the standards he should rule by.

    Well, maybe that’s because we’re both Christians. But by providence, God placed us Christians on the earth with non-Christian neighbors. Now either we are supposed to seize control from our non-Christian neighbors (to prevent them from doing any conscience-driven ruling) or we are supposed to work with them to take care of life outside the church.

    If the former, then we’re going to need to establish a religion test for public office; eligibility for election would require good-standing-membership in a church from an approved (by who?) list of denominations. So much for separation of church and state.

    If the latter (“If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all”) then we Christians are going to need to communicate with our neighbors about matters of law and justice and right and wrong. And as Christians, we can initiate that discussion with a Biblical concept of justice, but when our neighbor rejects the authority of the Bible, we have to appeal to their conscience:

    Christian: “Hey neighbor, isn’t that law against murder great? The bible says that whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood will be shed!”

    Neighbor: “I don’t care what the bible says”

    Christian: “I know; that fact is unsurprisingly consistent with the fact that you are not a Christian. But don’t you realize that murder is wrong, and needs to be punished?”

    Neighbor: “Well of course, that’s obvious!”

    Christian: “So we’re agreed that this law against murder is a great law. Next, we need to make a law against abortion! The Bible says that God knits us together as persons in the womb”

    Neighbor: “I don’t care what the bible says”

    Christian: “I know, but you still need to hear it. Anyways, don’t you realize that fetuses are babies, and babies are people?”

  71. RubeRad says:

    Re Acts 5:29, doesn’t context count for anything? The whole passage is about testifying to the resurrection of Jesus. It has everything to do with cultic truth and nothing to do with cultural.

    I don’t know if this answers your question, but I believe that a Christian soldier in Hitler’s army should invoke Acts 5:29 to desert rather than massacring Jews.

  72. Ron Smith says:

    I’d rather get strung up by Nazi’s for being silent about Adolf…

    What are you talking about? No one ever got martyred for being silent. The persecutors of Christians would be all too happy with the Christian’s silence (Acts 4:18), which is why they love it when Christians make no attempt to transform society by exalting the rule of the Christ in the public sphere. Liberals love private religion.

    But the Christians were very vocal about Jesus as Lord of all, even Caesar (Acts 17:7), even as Jesus himself claimed authority over heaven and earth and granted that authority to His Church officers in Caesarea (Matthew 16:12-20 probably just a coincidence). And if Jesus is Lord of Caesar, then Caesar has to do what Jesus says.

  73. Zrim says:

    “I don’t know if this answers your question, but I believe that a Christian soldier in Hitler’s army should invoke Acts 5:29 to desert rather than massacring Jews.”

    I know. It’s easy to reach across time and place with 20/20 vision and easily decide what believers should/’nt do. But to what does one appeal as an unbeliever? And what about the context? You should know that proof-texting is not a Reformed hermeutic.

    Same goes for appealing to Psalm 139 to make the case against reproductive rights (which is no argument). You need to appeal to natural law when making that case with unbelievers. Psalm 139 is not about protecting the unborn.

  74. Ron Smith says:

    If the former, then we’re going to need to establish a religion test for public office; eligibility for election would require good-standing-membership in a church from an approved (by who?) list of denominations. So much for separation of church and state.

    And yet the US Constitution provided for both a separation of Church and State powers and you had to be a member of the Church to hold office. How did they do it?

    Not forgetting the other 4 or so questions you have left unanswered, Rube (maybe you are working on them now), do you think Paul’s exhortation to live at peace with everyone so far as it depends on us means that we should make no civil laws that include violent acts like arrest, imprisonment, or execution? If no, then the verse doesn’t apply to the topic at hand.

  75. Zrim says:

    Ron,

    There is a time to speak and a time to be silent. The Apostle’s knew the difference. I wasn’t saying complete silence. The question turns on what, how, why, when and to whom. Theonomists understand that about as well as they grasp fulfillment. Which, is like, not a lot.

  76. RubeRad says:

    What are you talking about? No one ever got martyred for being silent.

    Isaiah 53:7

  77. Zrim says:

    Zrim to Brett: “Does your prebytery know you are really a Methodist?”

    Brett to Zrim: “Does your Session know you are really a cultural relativist?”

    Well, my Consistory/Council knows we quite deliberately send our kids to public schools (gasp!). It evidently didn’t keep them from nominating/electing me for office, even as they are intense transformers who take parochial day schooling (read: cultural endeavor) way more seriously than their confessional tradition (read: cultic endeavor).

    I guess I’ll take transformers over theonomists.

  78. Bret McAtee says:

    Well, my Consistery/Council knows we quite deliberately send our kids to public schools (gasp!). It evidently didn’t keep them from nominating/electing me for office, even as they are intense transformers who take parochial day schooling (read: cultural endeavor) way more seriously than their confessional tradition (read: cultic endeavor).

    I guess I’ll take transformers over theonomists.

    And we are surprised that one’s average run of the mill CRC church elected somebody to office who has handed over his children to Moloch?

  79. Zrim says:

    I would think you should be. As cult-like (the bad kind) as theonomists are about statecraft and culture, transformers are about education and culture. But last I checked, office bearing demanded cultic (the good kind) devotion, i.e., confessional subscription. It demands nothing of where one schools his children, shops for veggies or goes to movies. You know, “The radical intolerance of all things cultic, the radical tolerance of things cultural.” I know, you don’t make that distinction. Must be the same gene that prevents you from grasping fuflfillment.

    (Hardly average or run-of-the-mill. Calvin has been considered the flagship church of the CRC for some time. As one goes, so the other. And that going has been enough to make me go, soon.)

  80. Bret McAtee says:

    You have W2K mistaken with Fundamentalism. That happens a lot. But try tracking with the liturgicals. You may even learn how to chew gum and walk at once.

    I engage culture up one side and down the other. I just don’t transform it.

    LOL

    LOL

    LOL

    I read your link and thought … “Wow, this is Fundamentalism to the max.”

    And yet, I quite agree w/ Machen’s Libertarian streak as supported by Mencken. As you are busy knocking down straw men you probably don’t realize that, perhaps paradoxically enough, that many Theonomists have a large libertarian streak in them.

    I carry no brief for the nutcase religious right. I quit agree that their version of civil religion is only exasperating the problem. I am against prayer in school because I am against Religiously run Government schools altogether.

    Hart’s problem, like the problem of all R2Kt virus is that he continues to think that the common realm is ‘neutral.’ Yes, Yes … I know … R2Kt say all the time that they don’t believe the common realm is neutral but in the end that is where their position comes out. Just Hart’s mention of ‘Christian Secularist’ shows how confused St. DG is. It implies that a Christian can participate in the public square quite apart from thinking that the public square is laden with religious freight. Our current public square is Humanist. The public square of Saudi Arabia is Islamic. The public square of India is Hindu. ‘Christian Secluarist’ is just a R2Kt fundamentalist manufactured faith dogma.

    I suppose you think those government school teachers are engaging but not transforming your children as well? But maybe your maxim with your children is to engage and not transform them as well?

    Now on that chewing gum and walking thing — is it a matter of chew once, step once, chew once, step once? And does it matter whether I chew with the left side of my mouth while walking with my right foot?

  81. Zrim says:

    Are you assuming I have some sympathy with Libertarianism? That is a political view, not a theological one. I have no vested interest in Libertarianism as if my theological conclusions imply political ones. I’m a Pluralist.

    “I carry no brief for the nutcase religious right.”

    Well, the better theonomists I know can admit openly that they are “co-belligerents with the RR.” They may be nutty and seek Christian monarchies, but at laest they can admit that much. Your inconsistency is showing.

    “I suppose you think those government school teachers are engaging but not transforming your children as well? But maybe your maxim with your children is to engage and not transform them as well?”

    I know, you presume education to be primarily an affective project. Common assumption. But the only institution ordained to “create, mold and shape” human beings is the family. I alone have that office, along with my wife. Sure, education has an affective dimension running through it, since all things with human beings at the center do. But what happens at any school is primarily intellectual.

  82. Bret McAtee says:

    Because worldly leaders want full allegience. And, sooner or later, depending on the time and place, not endorsing is a way of resisting. Post-mills are more than willing to endorse since they create a category for “un/godly.” I’d rather get strung up by Nazi’s for being silent about Adolf than shaking hands with an American President because his worldview is “godly.” Something tells me Adolf will have my head a whole lot sooner for not endorsing than Dubya. We don’t often think of things in this way because we are anachronistic about the (amil) Apostles’ time and place. Their worldly leaders did not want to share one ounce of glory. Post-mills are willing to let Jesus’ throne be shared. Sure, they might get strung up because the ungoldy category means they must directly fight Caesar. But they should get strung up for the right reasons, which don’t include being rebellious against God’s servant. The right reason is when God’s servant demands to share Jesus’ throne. That’s where Daniel drew his line, at cultic truth. After all, he was educated in a “worldly way.” And nary a word is mentioned about “transforming” the King’s educational pedagogy.

    Eventually, even Ghandi wants us to call him Lord and will have our heads for resisting.

    I’m somewhat conversant with the period in Germany between 1933-1945. Do you have any particular names of people who were thrown in concentration camps because of being completely silent regarding National Socialism? Of course silence is tacit approval.

    I can name all kinds of two-Kingdom types that were very exuberant in their support of National Socialism. Sure, they were inconsistent with their avowed beliefs, but there it is.

    Second, most post-mills that I know of wouldn’t be caught dead supporting most of what washes up in terms of political candidates from the major parties. You’ll have to try again there.

    Isn’t Jesus Throne over everything?

    Your problem is you refuse to see that culture is the Theology of some god or gods incarnated. You think that culture is a-theological.

    I suspect that Daniel’s refusal to eat the King’s fare belongs in the ‘cultic’ category also? And what of that vision of the Stone that plows over the statue and fills the earth? That was a gnostic stone wasn’t it? And it filled a gnostic earth.

    I would think you should be. As cult-like (the bad kind) as theonomists are about statecraft and culture, transformers are about education and culture. But last I checked, office bearing demanded cultic (the good kind) devotion, i.e., confessional subscription. It demands nothing of where one schools his children, shops for veggies or goes to movies. You know, “The radical intolerance of all things cultic, the radical tolerance of things cultural.” I know, you don’t make that distinction. Must be the same gene that prevents you from grasping fuflfillment.

    Oh sure… I make the distinction, but unlike you R2Tk types I don’t divorce them and compartmentalize them. If you can’t see the cultic nature of education .. well, who am I to try and convince you?

    Isn’t it funny… I would contend that it is you who don’t understand fulfillment. Maybe my bad genes reverses things.

    Its your site Zrim…I’ll retire for now and you can get the last dig with some kind of cutsie walking and chewing gum jab, or TV show jab, or genetic malfunction jab.

    (Hardly average or run-of-the-mill. Calvin has been considered the flagship church of the CRC for some time. As one goes, so the other. And that going has been enough to make me go, soon.)

    So have y’all decided on calling a particular minister yet?

    I’m genuinely sorry about your despair with your church. I am hoping you can find one that in the GRR area that is engaging but not transforming, cultic but not cultural, and where Jesus reigns in a different way.

  83. Bret McAtee says:

    I know, you presume education to be primarily an affective project. Common assumption. But the only institution ordained to “create, mold and shape” human beings is the family. I alone have that office, along with my wife. Sure, education has an affective dimension running through it, since all things with human beings at the center do. But what happens at any school is primarily intellectual.

    LOL

    You really need to get out more often.

  84. Zrim says:

    “So have y’all decided on calling a particular minister yet?”

    Oy, don’t get me started. The whole process helps make my general point about how lost and misguided the CRC is.

    “I’m genuinely sorry about your despair with your church. I am hoping you can find one that in the GRR area that is engaging but not transforming, cultic but not cultural, and where Jesus reigns in a different way.”

    Thanks, me too.

    “You really need to get out more often.”

    Funny, that’s exactly what I thought I was doing by refusing hunkered down theonomy and denial-ridden transformationalism. You entrenched, Kingdom-collapsing Fundies and soft theonomists are way too legalistic for this worldly believer.

  85. Ron Smith says:

    Rube, you’ve commented 3 times since I made this comment, and none of them in response to the questions I posited. Are you still thinking, or are you in denial?

  86. Bret McAtee says:

    Funny, a couple of years ago I had a huge brouhaha in the Church I pastor because a few people thought me far to antinomian.

    I guess it depends where you are standing.

    Bret

  87. kazooless says:

    Zrim,

    A theonomic government would be an extremely small, de-centralized one. Most of the RR fundies want government that gets involved in humanitarian spheres still. Huckabee pardoning those criminals because it was the “Christian” thing to do, you know, forgiveness and all that, is just a fundy misunderstanding of the proper spheres of authority/government that God has ordained.

    kazoo

  88. kazooless says:

    Rube,

    In response to your comment here:

    You can only imagine that conversation because you’ve grown up in a culture that has been largely influenced by the gospel. Try transporting yourself to a tribe that never heard the gospel and you’re more likely to find that you don’t have common ground with the unbeliever. Unless the Holy Spirit blesses your preaching of the gospel in the hearts of these unbelievers, they’re going to tell you to get lost and that they’re going to continue to sacrifice their babies to their god, and that you and your family look like you’d make a scrumptious meal!

    Neutrality is a myth. You must preach the gospel and baptize these people into the triune name. Then they must be discipled. If they murder you while trying the first step, so be it, praise be to God, but there is no neutral ground. They have seared consciences that won’t list to reason (i.e. natural law) and you have a conscience that has been made alive.

    See you at camp!

    kazoo

  89. John Bugay says:

    Zrim, Bret, I am glad to see that you have found each other 🙂

  90. Zrim says:

    I think what Kazoo, Bret and Ron are saying is that they are theonomists and disagree with W2K.

  91. sean says:

    ” I suppose you think those government school teachers are engaging but not transforming your children as well? But maybe your maxim with your children is to engage and not transform them as well?”

    Well, if there is a religious agenda attached/implied in the educational system it does not therefore establish an argument for a christian theistic system but rather an argument against any kind of cultic religious system. The argument that humanistic secularism qualifies as an religious worldview doesn’t work. The existence of Hindu, Islamic, et al cultic transformative religious theocracies is simply another argument against any cultic theocratic society this side of glory.

    The bigger question is this; if God created/recreated the “city” outside of Eden (the judicial mandate against Cain but limiting retributive justice) or the recreation of the world post noahic deluge. Is not the non-cultic city good? It may not be holy, but it is established and bound(beginning and end) by God Himself(or was God just providing the “church” an antogonist?). And if it(the city) is God’s and therefore good, who are the transformationalists and theonomists really at odds with?

  92. Ron Smith says:

    Didn’t God create Satan? So who was Jesus at odds with, God?

    God created all things and *before the fall* “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.” The man, the beasts, the land, it was all *very good*.

    Sin changed that.

    Jesus is changing it back.

  93. Bret McAtee says:

    Well, if there is a religious agenda attached/implied in the educational system it does not therefore establish an argument for a christian theistic system but rather an argument against any kind of cultic religious system.

    Culture is ALWAYS a reflection of the cultic religious system of any society. Culture always descends from what a people think about God. Hence, cultic religious systems are inescapable categories that cannot be avoided. You cannot build a common realm that is sanitized of the gods. Christians may decide to hold Christ’s Lordship in abeyance in the common realm but that does not mean that the adherents of other systems will not press for the advance of their gods in the putatively common realm.

    The argument that humanistic secularism qualifies as an religious worldview doesn’t work. The existence of Hindu, Islamic, et al cultic transformative religious theocracies is simply another argument against any cultic theocratic society this side of glory.

    Asserting that humanism doesn’t qualify as a religious worldview is just an assertion. With the God as the State implementing positivistic notions of law while hiring priests (teachers) to catechize the youth in Government Churches (schools) and providing the sacrament of social security # by way of Baptism and voting by way of table rights Humanism certainly qualifies as a worldview. Any contention that it doesn’t is just a case where ideology trumps reality.

    The bigger question is this; if God created/recreated the “city” outside of Eden (the judicial mandate against Cain but limiting retributive justice) or the recreation of the world post noahic deluge. Is not the non-cultic city good?

    The non-cultic city didn’t look so non-cultic at Babel. Scripture teaches that Satan is the God of this world which I understand to mean that Satan is God of the present wicked age that is in opposition to the age to come which Christ has brought. If Satan is God of this present wicked age then clearly this present wicked age, having a god (which is no god) is a cultic city that stands in opposition to the age to come that Christ has brought with its own cultic character. Christ has in principle destroyed this present wicked age and His people live out that victory in obedience to His Kingship.

    To say that there is a non-cultic city is to say that there is a realm where neutrality obtains. Not true.

    It may not be holy, but it is established and bound(beginning and end) by God Himself(or was God just providing the “church” an antogonist?). And if it(the city) is God’s and therefore good, who are the transformationalists and theonomists really at odds with?

    If this present wicked age is to be overcome by the age to come which has already, in principle overcome it, then who are the R2Kt virus people really at odds with?

  94. sean says:

    “Culture is ALWAYS a reflection of the cultic religious system of any society. Culture always descends from what a people think about God.”

    Actually Rom 2 argues for a common value system amongst all peoples(reflection of the imago dei) . The error occurs not in that a culture reflects what people think about God, The problem occurs when a group/tribe becomes too particular(read cultic) in it’s civil application of their beliefs about their God.(i.e. christendom, emperor’s cult, islamists, theocrats of any particular stripe) or when it deifies it’s political beliefs or leaders.

    “Hence, cultic religious systems are inescapable categories that cannot be avoided. You cannot build a common realm that is sanitized of the gods.”

    We can’t but God did, we just struggle with confusing what God did with what we want(see Babel).

    “Christians may decide to hold Christ’s Lordship in abeyance in the common realm but that does not mean that the adherents of other systems will not press for the advance of their gods in the putatively common realm.”

    That’s why we must oppose it and push for secularism in culture.

    “Asserting that humanism doesn’t qualify as a religious worldview is just an assertion. With the God as the State implementing positivistic notions”

    Hmm, actually the God of scripture takes credit for and exhorts obedience toward that state. In fact the only time that gets real thorny for the christian is when the state gets cultic in a particular manner (emperor’s cult)

    “of law while hiring priests (teachers) to catechize the youth in Government Churches (schools) and providing the sacrament of social security # by way of Baptism and voting by way of table rights Humanism certainly qualifies as a worldview. Any contention that it doesn’t is just a case where ideology trumps reality.”

    Well, it seems i’m not the only one susceptible to assertions, or ideology that trumps, in this case, Rom 13.

    “The non-cultic city didn’t look so non-cultic at Babel.”

    And I thought God handled that situation quite well.

    ” Scripture teaches that Satan is the God of this world which I understand to mean that Satan is God of the present wicked age that is in opposition to the age to come which Christ has brought. If Satan is God of this present wicked age then clearly this present wicked age, having a god (which is no god) is a cultic city that stands in opposition to the age to come that Christ has brought with its own cultic character.”

    But don’t you see, you certainly assert it, the spirit of the age is cultic, it seeks to take the common and make it holy, the secular and make it sacred, in service of which cult is of no import. What is worldly activity if not the absentmindedness of another city? a heavenly city where there is one who renders ultimate judgement. The spirit of this age imbibes of this age as if there were no other. It’s not that their isn’t or wont be a theocratic city, it’s just that it isn’t rightly exercised in this age outside of the word preached and the sacraments rightly administered.

    “Christ has in principle destroyed this present wicked age and His people live out that victory in obedience to His Kingship.”

    By believing in Him who He sent, and living their lives quietly, working with their hands, and being obedient to those in authority over them.

    “To say that there is a non-cultic city is to say that there is a realm where neutrality obtains. Not true.”

    More assertion, although I’ll agree that their is no legitimate cultic city this side of glory except as it exists spiritually and in tension within the redeemed community.

    “If this present wicked age is to be overcome by the age to come which has already, in principle overcome it, then who are the R2Kt virus people really at odds with?”

    This age which purports to be “the city” while we patiently wait for a better one.

  95. Bret McAtee says:

    Actually Rom 2 argues for a common value system amongst all peoples(reflection of the imago dei).

    And Romans 1 argues that the common value system is suppressed in unrighteousness among the peoples who changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made by man. You cannot appeal to Romans 2 in such a way that it contradicts Romans 1.

    The error occurs not in that a culture reflects what people think about God, The problem occurs when a group/tribe becomes too particular(read cultic) in it’s civil application of their beliefs about their God.(i.e. christendom, emperor’s cult, islamists, theocrats of any particular stripe) or when it deifies it’s political beliefs or leaders.

    Including when it deifies the belief that no god should be the god of the public square. All tribes are equally particular in their civil application of their beliefs about God. (i.e. — Humanismdom, Islamdom, Christendom, Pluralismdom etc.). All cultures have a sense of the ‘taboo’ thus revealing that their culture is an expression of the cultic religious system. All culture are organized cultically. The attempt to have a non-cultic culture would result in a cultic culture that is an expression of the non-cultic cult.

    We can’t build a common realm that is sanitized of the gods. but God did ,build a common realm that is sanitized of the gods. we just struggle with confusing what God did with what we want(see Babel).

    That is just an assertion. I see nowhere in Scripture where God commands a common realm that is sanitized of all the gods including himself. If such a realm existed who would make sure that the realm stayed sanitized? Wouldn’t that entity that was in charge of making sure the non god realm remained sanitized of the gods then become the God of the realm policing the other gods from going to far? Certainly it would, and further it would become a cultic expression which in turn would create a culture.

    Of course this would be called pluralism which is a culture in defiance of the the One King Jesus who is over all.

    “We must oppose the adherents of other systems pressing for the advance of their gods in the putatively common realm and push for secularism in culture.

    LOL!!!

    And behold, Secularism becomes the cult which creates the culture.

    And of course since Secularism is a no thing it will be defined by as Secularism by those religious adherents who are smart enough to realize that they can’t get their cult in by its proper name and so they will push it under the name of ‘secularism.’ This is what Humanism, with such genius, has done incrementally in this country for generations.

    Hmm, actually the God of scripture takes credit for and exhorts obedience toward that state. In fact the only time that gets real thorny for the christian is when the state gets cultic in a particular manner (emperor’s cult)

    Actually the God of Scripture often commends those who rise up against tyranny. We must read all the Scriptures and not simply wrench Romans 13 out of context of the whole of Scripture. If you want to some good reads on this I would advise Rutherford’s ‘Lex Rex,’ or Vindcae Contra Tyrannos, or George Buchanan’s De Jure Regni Apud Scotos’ for starters.

    I am confident that disobedience to the State when it positions itself as God in significant non-cultic realms (like deciding some people group are sub-human and are to be liquidated) is biblical reason for obedience to God rather then men.

    Well, it seems i’m not the only one susceptible to assertions, or ideology that trumps, in this case, Rom 13.

    Not only are you the only one susceptible to assertions, and ideology that trumps reality, but in this case you are the only one who is significantly mishandling Romans 13.

    And I thought God handled Babel quite well.

    Absolutely! Just like in using Ehud he overthrew the Tyrant quite well as well. See these other links for posts on Christians resistance.
    http://backwaterreport.com/?p=459

    http://backwaterreport.com/?p=460
    http://backwaterreport.com/?p=461

    But don’t you see, you certainly assert it, the spirit of the age is cultic, it seeks to take the common and make it holy, the secular and make it sacred, in service of which cult is of no import. What is worldly activity if not the absentmindedness of another city? a heavenly city where there is one who renders ultimate judgement. The spirit of this age imbibes of this age as if there were no other. It’s not that their isn’t or wont be a theocratic city, it’s just that it isn’t rightly exercised in this age outside of the word preached and the sacraments rightly administered.

    Christ is Lord over all and as such when all is handled as unto Him all is Holy. Now, I still quite insist that there remains a ‘Holy of the Holy’ as it were, located in the cult proper (Word and Sacrament) but as God’s people bring to bear the authority of Christ over all that Christ has dominion over all is Holy unto Him. You would divorce sacred from putatively secular by compartmentalizing them between the two and yet even those who are at the height of secularity, must kiss the Son lest He be angry and they perish in the way.
    The Spirit of this age tries to pretend that the age to come isn’t impinging upon the Spirit of this age and that the Spirit of this age is doomed for defeat. The Spirit of the age does all it can to deny the real impact that the age to come has upon what it once called its domain.

    There is a Theocratic city to come but we must not under-realize our eschatology and forget that there is a Theocratic city that is now. Christ has come. Christ brought His Kingdom. Christ bound the Strong man. The Theocratic city now rules. Our living and advocacy in every area of life should reflect hegemony of our Theocratic King.

    By believing in Him who He sent, and living their lives quietly, working with their hands, and being obedient to those in authority over them.

    By being obedient to Him in every area. By not only praying ‘Thy Kingdom Come’ but also by realizing that with the ongoing coming of His already present Kingdom opposing Kingdoms must crumble. By resolving that when appropriate they must obey God rather then man. By being willing to endure a theology of the Cross as a result of the opposition to pursuing the glory of God in every area of life.

    More assertion, although I’ll agree that their is no legitimate cultic city this side of glory except as it exists spiritually and in tension within the redeemed community.

    Not an assertion. Show me one organized culture in history that has been neutral.

    Your eschatology is under-realized Sean.

    Grossly so.

  96. sean says:

    “And Romans 1 argues that the common value system is suppressed in unrighteousness among the peoples who changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made by man. You cannot appeal to Romans 2 in such a way that it contradicts Romans 1.”

    I agree and I haven’t appealed to it as such, i’ve referenced it in just the way Paul makes use of it, to acknowledge commonality with the Gentile(when the gentile does…..). I fear you confuse sin with crime.

    “Including when it deifies the belief that no god should be the god of the public square. All tribes are equally particular in their civil application of their beliefs about God. (i.e. — Humanismdom, Islamdom, Christendom, Pluralismdom etc.). All cultures have a sense of the ‘taboo’ thus revealing that their culture is an expression of the cultic religious system.”

    They all reflect a commonality in that they reflect however imperfectly the imago dei. Again sin and crime needs to be distinguished.

    ” All culture are organized cultically. The attempt to have a non-cultic culture would result in a cultic culture that is an expression of the non-cultic cult.”

    Not in a culture that rightly distinguished common from holy, sacred from secular. In that instance it is not a deifying of the common but rightly distinguishing cult from culture and insisting that cultural and cultic institutions rightly adhere to their respective bounds.

    “I am confident that disobedience to the State when it positions itself as God in significant non-cultic realms (like deciding some people group are sub-human and are to be liquidated) is biblical reason for obedience to God rather then men.”

    I overstated with the “only”, unintended, I have no objection to overcoming certain tyrannical acts, particularly when those acts emanate from a state who is using forcible coercion to apply it’s cultic distinctions(identity movement, naziism) (regard of other ethnicities as sub-human, diminishing the imago dei). This is simply upholding the distinction between common and holy and affirming the imago dei.

    “There is a Theocratic city to come but we must not under-realize our eschatology and forget that there is a Theocratic city that is now. Christ has come. Christ brought His Kingdom. Christ bound the Strong man. The Theocratic city now rules. Our living and advocacy in every area of life should reflect hegemony of our Theocratic King.”

    Well, this is an obvious confusion of kingdoms, and the defining of the kingdom as something other than spiritual in this age, it’s a misunderstanding of the nature of the kingdom ala “jewish dreams”, and an example of overrealized eschatology.(christendom)

    “By being obedient to Him in every area. By not only praying ‘Thy Kingdom Come’ but also by realizing that with the ongoing coming of His already present Kingdom opposing Kingdoms must crumble. By resolving that when appropriate they must obey God rather then man. By being willing to endure a theology of the Cross as a result of the opposition to pursuing the glory of God in every area of life.”

    Not sure we disagree here, depends if you have in mind a golden age in which cultural institutions this side of the second advent are undergoing reclamation. In that case you’ve violated your theology of the cross.

    “Your eschatology is under-realized Sean.

    Grossly so.”

    I disagree, I simply understand the kingdom of God to be solely spiritual in nature this side of the second advent.

  97. Bret McAtee says:

    I disagree, I simply understand the kingdom of God to be solely spiritual in nature this side of the second advent.

    gnostic.

  98. sean says:

    “gnostic.”

    LOL

    I would say it differently. lol

  99. Zrim says:

    It is interesting that W2K views, in the context of Reformed confessionalism, are often called “Gnostic” or “Fundamentalist” or “Dispensational,” at least to me. I deliberately rejected broad Evangelicalism years ago on the same sorts of grounds. What I find similar to broad Evangelicalism (indeed, most western religion) and the principles of theonomy/transformationalism is that heaven implies earth, that the gospel itself has a direct bearing on and obvious implication for earth, that the eternal and temporal are not really all that distinct. (What’s this mean for something like the Creator/creature distinction?) But if everything is sacred then nothing is.

    This is why I say that consistent theonomy seems necessarily to have to be co-belligerent with something like the religious right, which is itself simply the conservative version of modern Liberalism; I am not sure why some theonomists, like the ones here, reject the RR. Like I said, I have spoken with theonomists who seem to understand this and readily admit co-belligerancy. It’s also why I think very often in Federal Vision you find deep roots in theonomy and postmill’ism—it seems consistent with the idea of monocovenantalism or the collapsing of kingdoms and covenants.

  100. RubeRad says:

    Rube, you’ve commented 3 times since I made this comment, and none of them in response to the questions I posited. Are you still thinking, or are you in denial?

    I would deny that I am in denial, were it not self-defeating to do so! I made the mistake of going camping over the weekend, and now I’ve given up hope catching up with this thread.

    Rube, why not just admit that when it comes to politics, you are a practical atheist?

    For the same reason that you won’t admit to practical Arminianism — because it sounds bad. I stand against the moral relativism that is the only logically consistent conclusion of atheism. But in God’s providence, not even atheists can escape the cries of their hearts against injustice, suppress them though they may.

    I would not vote against (or for) any candidate for public office based simply on the criterion that he is an atheist, if that answers your question. I don’t know any reason why non-Christians can’t do politics well — the Greeks seem to have had a few good ideas. (But since it is not possible for men to rule themselves purely by the light of natural revelation, they must have discovered some Hebrew scriptures that they didn’t tell us they based all of their theories on)

  101. Bret McAtee says:

    Comparing & Contrasting Two Different Christian Visions

    This conversation may be getting old to some. If it is just ignore it. Still, I think it provides the advantage of really teasing out the differences between radical two Kingdom Theology and Biblical Theology. It is interesting, that according to John Witte, in a recent book that he has put out chronicles that the young Calvin embraced Luther’s two Kingdom theology but, Witte points out, as Calvin matured he increasingly moved away from Luther’s Two Kingdom Theology.

    It is essential to keep in mind as we examine this that since Two Kingdom Theology hold that only people are Christians that applying the appellation ‘Christian’ to anything else is an absurdity. Therefore they reject the idea of ‘Christian Family,’ ‘Christian Schools,’ ‘Christian Scholarship,’ ‘Christian Law,’ and ‘Christian Culture.’ Now while we agree that the term ‘Christian’ should apply primarily to individuals we think it obscene to suggest that God’s word doesn’t speak to how to establish Christian families, schools, scholarship, law culture, and any number of other areas. What the Two Kingdom types want God’s people to apply to these areas is not God’s Redemptive Word as found in Scripture but rather God’s Creative Word as found in Natural Law. So Natural law holds sway in where we do all our non-spiritual living and God’s Redemptive word holds sway in the Church where we do our spiritual living.

    I agree that Romans 1 and 2 can’t be made to contradict one another and I haven’t appealed to it as such, i’ve referenced it in just the way Paul makes use of it, to acknowledge commonality with the Gentile(when the gentile does…..). I fear you confuse sin with crime.

    It’s true that the there is commonality with those who do not have the law. There is commonality but not neutrality. I fear you confuse the two. The commanality that exists between the two is denied by those who do not have the law, choosing instead to insist that the common ground that belongs to God is in fact their ground that belongs to them and their deity. I do not confuse sin w/ crime but I do recognize that sin often leads to crime. In order to say anymore about that you’ll have to develop just how I am confusing the two.

    “Including when it deifies the belief that no god should be the god of the public square. All tribes are equally particular in their civil application of their beliefs about God. (i.e. — Humanismdom, Islamdom, Christendom, Pluralismdom etc.). All cultures have a sense of the ‘taboo’ thus revealing that their culture is an expression of the cultic religious system.”

    They all reflect a commonality in that they reflect however imperfectly the imago dei. Again sin and crime needs to be distinguished.

    They all don’t reflect equally, however imperfectly, the imago dei. You have just made the multiculturalists argument that all culturals are equal, which is what I would expect a R2Kt pluralist to make. Christian culture (wherever it might exist) does indeed imperfectly reflect the imago dei, just as fallen individuals who have been redeemed imperfectly reflect the imago die, but because it has been Redeemed it is far superior and to be preferred above all other imperfect reflections of the imago dei.

    ”All culture are organized cultically. The attempt to have a non-cultic culture would result in a cultic culture that is an expression of the non-cultic cult.”

    Not in a culture that rightly distinguished common from holy, sacred from secular. In that instance it is not a deifying of the common but rightly distinguishing cult from culture and insisting that cultural and cultic institutions rightly adhere to their respective bounds.

    Did it ever occur to you that cult and culture, sharing a root word, are intimately bound up with one another? Certainly one can distinguish between the two but to divorce and compartmentalize between the two such as you are doing is utter nonsense. In a culture that rightly distinguished common from holy, sacred from secular, that ability to distinguish would be a testimony that such a culture that does make such distinguishing is a Holy culture. It is the set apart culture because it is operating the way that God wants it to. It is the culture to be preferred above all other cultures. It is the Holy culture because it makes distinctions between Holy and Secular. It is the sacred culture because it is the true culture. You haven’t avoided what you so desperately want to avoid. All cultures are organized cultically.

    “I am confident that disobedience to the State when it positions itself as God in significant non-cultic realms (like deciding some people group are sub-human and are to be liquidated) is biblical reason for obedience to God rather then men.”

    I overstated with the “only”, unintended, I have no objection to overcoming certain tyrannical acts, particularly when those acts emanate from a state who is using forcible coercion to apply it’s cultic distinctions(identity movement, naziism) (regard of other ethnicities as sub-human, diminishing the imago dei). This is simply upholding the distinction between common and holy and affirming the imago dei.

    Ah, so now, in your non-cultic culture any behavior that that you deem cultic by what is non-cultic is ok. Et Tu Brutus? That is a major inconsistency on your part. Anything that I would advocate the State do to not do would likewise simply be affirming the imago dei and an avoidance of diminishing the imago die. In the end you’re position is not any different then mine. The only difference is that you are willing for a culture to defy God up to a later point then I am. I draw lines way before when they start putting yellow stars on people and you don’t start drawing lines until they actually are putting them in the ovens.

    “There is a Theocratic city to come but we must not under-realize our eschatology and forget that there is a Theocratic city that is now. Christ has come. Christ brought His Kingdom. Christ bound the Strong man. The Theocratic city now rules. Our living and advocacy in every area of life should reflect hegemony of our Theocratic King.”

    Well, this is an obvious confusion of kingdoms, and the defining of the kingdom as something other than spiritual in this age, it’s a misunderstanding of the nature of the kingdom ala “jewish dreams”, and an example of overrealized eschatology.(christendom)

    And here we begin to see your gnostic theology. In your view any aspect that belongs to Christ’s Kingdom cannot be corporeal since Christ’s Kingdom is by definition incorporeal that is to say Spiritual. Christ has brought a Spiritual salvation and that salvation does not apply to things you perceive to be non-Spiritual. Does Christ bring Salvation to our Political structures? ‘No’, you say because they are not Spiritual. Does Christ bring salvation to our economic relationships? ‘No,’ you say because they are not Spiritual. Does Christ bring Salvation to our Families? ‘No,’ you say because they are not Spiritual. Does Christ bring salvation to our understanding of the World as conveyed in Schools? ‘No,’ you say because they are not Spiritual. This is nothing but gnosticism.

    “By being obedient to Him in every area. By not only praying ‘Thy Kingdom Come’ but also by realizing that with the ongoing coming of His already present Kingdom opposing Kingdoms must crumble. By resolving that when appropriate they must obey God rather then man. By being willing to endure a theology of the Cross as a result of the opposition to pursuing the glory of God in every area of life.”

    Not sure we disagree here, depends if you have in mind a golden age in which cultural institutions this side of the second advent are undergoing reclamation. In that case you’ve violated your theology of the cross.

    I do have in mind a Triumphant age in which cultural institutions this side of the second advent submit to Christ’s always present Lordship. And I would contend it is only post-millennialists who have a theology of the cross because it is only post-millennialists that the enemies of Christ would bother to persecute for the Kingdoms sake. It’s easy to talk about a Theology of the Cross when you don’t do anything that would make anybody want to persecute you.

    It is interesting that W2K views, in the context of Reformed confessionalism, are often called “Gnostic” or “Fundamentalist” or “Dispensational,” at least to me. I deliberately rejected broad Evangelicalism years ago on the same sorts of grounds. What I find similar to broad Evangelicalism (indeed, most western religion) and the principles of theonomy/transformationalism is that heaven implies earth, that the gospel itself has a direct bearing on and obvious implication for earth, that the eternal and temporal are not really all that distinct. (What’s this mean for something like the Creator/creature distinction?) But if everything is sacred then nothing is.

    This is an important observation and it is why I insist that while everything is Holy there must remain a ‘Holy of the Holy’ in the administering of Word and Sacrament. In just such a way your last sentence loses its force. I agree that the eternal and the temporal are distinct. I don’t agree that the eternal and the temporal are divorced and compartmentalized as if heaven and earth have nothing to do with each other. In the end I think there are two dangers to avoid. One danger is conflating the two so that they are indistinguishable. This is the danger that I believe the Church embraced in the Medieval ages. The other danger is divorcing the two so that they are isolated from one another. This was the danger of the Ana-Baptists and frankly it is the danger of the R2Kt people. Only in Reformed thinking was heaven and earth reconciled so that they neither became completely identified with one another on one hand nor were completely divorced from each other on the other hand.

    This is why I say that consistent theonomy seems necessarily to have to be co-belligerent with something like the religious right, which is itself simply the conservative version of modern Liberalism; I am not sure why some theonomists, like the ones here, reject the RR. Like I said, I have spoken with theonomists who seem to understand this and readily admit co-belligerancy. It’s also why I think very often in Federal Vision you find deep roots in theonomy and postmill’ism—it seems consistent with the idea of monocovenantalism or the collapsing of kingdoms and covenants.

    I reject the christian right because it is not particularly Christian nor definitively ‘right.’ It is, as you say, just a ‘conservative’ version of modern liberalism. Now, there may be some issues with which I will share a co-belligerancy but that is a far different thing then accepting the Christian Right. Shoot, on the right issue Zrim I would even be co-belligerent with you.

    And just so I don’t get tarred with that broad brush you’re swinging, I reject the Federal Vision project as it pertains to justification. I’m still working my way through the bi vs. mono issue, but your comment there was insightful and has set me to thinking about some connections.

  102. Zrim says:

    Bret,

    Sometimes broad brushes are not as unfriendly as we think.

  103. sean says:

    “It’s true that the there is commonality with those who do not have the law. There is commonality
    but not neutrality. I fear you confuse the two. The commanality that exists between the two is denied by those who do not have the law, choosing instead to insist that the common ground that belongs to God is in fact their ground that belongs to them and their deity. I do not confuse sin w/ crime but I do recognize that sin often leads to crime. In order to say anymore about that you’ll have to develop just how I am confusing the two.”

    Well, Paul acknowledges the commonality by pointing to what some Gentiles actually DO. That they don’t give rightful praise to the One who created them, does not disable them from DOING the law(natural law-civil use). In fact there is a way in which their excusing themselves from their cultic duties in doing the law, enables them to do it better.-Paul “before the law I was free, I did not know coveting until the law said ‘do not covet’. Does this convict them of being horrible sinners?-absolutely. Does this disable them from being good citizens or at least on par with believers-absolutely not.

    “They all don’t reflect equally, however imperfectly, the imago dei. You have just made the multiculturalists argument that all culturals are equal,

    Yes and No, just as there are degrees of ability amongst peoples as to skills, or size of population, or years in existence,or natural resources at their disposal, as well as the availability of technological innovation, so their may be distinction in education, productivity, refinement and development of different cultures and cultural products.

    “which is what I would expect a R2Kt pluralist to make. Christian culture (wherever it might exist) does indeed imperfectly reflect the imago dei, just as fallen individuals who have been redeemed imperfectly reflect the imago die, but because it has been Redeemed it is far superior and to be preferred above all other imperfect reflections of the imago dei.”

    The argument going on here from the transformationalist side that says by virtue of becoming a christian, I can be a better citizen than the unregenerate. I don’t see that anywhere in scripture. I guess we could start marshalling historical arguments for and against but I would rather just join with the WCF ,for brevity’s sake, in affirming the unregenerate’s ability to justly order a society. Now, if you want to say that the christian has the opportunity to be more cultically(sp?) faithful than when he was an unregenerate when he engages in cultural activity than I would agree that he does.

    “Did it ever occur to you that cult and culture, sharing a root word, are intimately bound up with one another?

    Yes

    “Certainly one can distinguish between the two but to divorce and compartmentalize between the two such as you are doing is utter nonsense.”

    Before the fall, in a pre-lapsarian world I completely agree.

    “In a culture that rightly distinguished common from holy, sacred from secular, that ability to distinguish would be a testimony that such a culture that does make such distinguishing is a Holy culture. It is the set apart culture because it is operating the way that God wants it to. It is the culture to be preferred above all other cultures. It is the Holy culture because it makes distinctions between Holy and Secular.”

    So you openly violate this when you posit your triuphalist postmillenial dream. Besides being rightly ordered may mean you’re just dutch not holy.

    “It is the sacred culture because it is the true culture. You haven’t avoided what you so desperately want to avoid. All cultures are organized cultically.”

    I’m confused, how does my making distinction between the temporal and eternal, the holy and common, therefore redeem the cultural institution in which I engage in my temporal activity? That I do something unto the glory of God as my cultic duty does not therefore make that cultural institution sacred/eternal as well. Now, I’m told in scripture that my procreative activities do, in fact, entail covenantal opportunities, however marriage is not purely a cultic privilege but a common endeavor as well, and more so, while bearing offspring has covenantal implications, it does not guarantee spiritual sanctification nor cultic fidelity, Finally, the institution of marriage turns out to be a temporal institution(even in a pre-lapsarian world) not being maintained or re-established in eternity.

    *****As a note it might be helpful to reflect on the changes that occured because of the fall. The hopes for cult and culture underwent drastic revision because of sin.

    “Ah, so now, in your non-cultic culture any behavior that that you deem cultic by what is non-cultic is ok. Et Tu Brutus?

    Come again. I think you’re misreading me on this point.

    “And here we begin to see your gnostic theology. In your view any aspect that belongs to Christ’s Kingdom cannot be corporeal since Christ’s Kingdom is by definition incorporeal that is to say Spiritual. Christ has brought a Spiritual salvation and that salvation does not apply to things you perceive to be non-Spiritual. Does Christ bring Salvation to our Political structures? ‘No’, you say because they are not Spiritual. Does Christ bring salvation to our economic relationships? ‘No,’ you say because they are not Spiritual. Does Christ bring Salvation to our Families? ‘No,’ you say because they are not Spiritual. Does Christ bring salvation to our understanding of the World as conveyed in Schools? ‘No,’ you say because they are not Spiritual. This is nothing but gnosticism.”

    Actually I have no problem using matter and enjoying it for what it is and being cultically(sp?) faithful to give thanks for it. I’m even willing to use corporeal elements in cultic worship though I would deny those corporeal elements are made more than corporeal by their use in cultic activities . I claim no secret knowledge in making that statement, though I credit spiritual regeneration for being able to say it.

    How about we substitute temporal for “not spiritual” and see how that works for you.

  104. sean says:

    “I claim no secret knowledge in making that statement, though I credit spiritual regeneration for being able to say it.”

    The “giving thanks that is”, though even that is not totally sincere and without hypocrisy. The fall was bad, it really did a number on me.

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